What goes into a manned Pilot getting an instrument rating to fly? What do drones lack that prevents them from being instrument rated?

[Don Testme]

What goes into a manned Pilot getting an instrument rating to fly? What do drones lack that prevents them from being instrument rated?

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Someone in the pilot seat.

The ability to look around and keep situational awareness of the airspace around them.
Coupled to the fact a pilot on an aircraft in certainly at risk in an event, more care / awareness is naturally taken, while a drone pilot has no 'bodily risk' on the line and can become complacent with time.

Personally, I'm really comfortable flying BVLOS the very limited number of times I have done this, being able to fly, keep my drone safe via the feed, settings all done right for RTH with the surrounds etc.

But there's no way when X distance from my home point that I can A) tell an aircraft is coming closer to the airspace where I'm flying my drone, B) whether it is at risk from my drone's location in the airspace, or C) even if I did, what evasive action I should take.

Fact is I fly like this with my screen and telemetry 99% of a flight, but in all but extenuating situations it's kept close enough to be able to find it in the air quickly, and be in the same airspace as approaching manned aircraft in the rare instance this happens.

In 5-1/2 years, I really only recall one heli approach towards my drone's airspace, when I heard the distant blades beat, and I dropped to 15 - 20 metres until I was aware it or my drone wasn't a threat to the other.

 

[Ralph thompson]

A full answer to this would take volumes.
Flying an airplane according to Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) requires a qualified pilot & airplane with duplicate radio and Nav. equipment and an airframe that can handle all the environmental conditions (including rain, ice etc). There are multiple instrument ratings requiring particular equipment and qualifications and allow operations in different visibilities and conditions. The pilots has to have completed and been tested under a long list of conditions and have extensive knowledge of meteorology, navigation, equipment & avionics, theory of flight, airmanship, human factors (illusions etc) and safety. Take a glance at pilots basic bible called From the Ground Up to understand that flying in instrument conditions is in a different league to operating a small drone.
On top of all this, remember that airplanes under IFR operate in restricted areas like approach paths into airports, tracks in the sky and predetermined flight levels following radio navigation aids.
all this for the safety of the pilot, their passengers and life on the ground.

 

[Walleye Hunter]

In addition to the above referenced equipment requirements, manned aircraft flying IFR are under verbal control and direction of ATC and their plane can be 'seen' on their screen. They follow direct paths to specific waypoints from beginning to end of the flight at specific altitudes. They do not fly willy nilly through the clouds. I'm wondering why one would want to fly a drone when you can't see it and it's camera can't see anything.

 

[Tolly]

I'm second guessing what Don's question is driving at so forgive me if i'm wrong. First off I have flown light aircraft and Ralph is correct; its in a completely different league and we should not even think about that comparison. What I think we can consider is the regulations with regards to small, sub 250g drones, compared to, for example a paramotor pilot. Close to where I regularly fly my drone, for which I must now not only be in VLOS but also be able to visually observe the drone orientation without the use of the fly app, there is a paramotor club. The club location is not on any dronesafe/altitude angel map so without local knowledge you are not aware. So: a 14 stone guy with a petrol engine strapped to his back with probably only an altimeter and an air speed indicator can fly wherever he likes without a license or CAA approval up to 26,500ft and as low as he likes as long as he can see and reach a safe landing site. A drone pilot for a piece of plastic weighing the same as a pack of butter but with extensive telemetry from the fly app showing map, orientation, height speed, etc can't now fly beyond 50m without breaking the law. Go figure.

 

[Walleye Hunter]

I'm second guessing what Don's question is driving at so forgive me if i'm wrong. First off I have flown light aircraft and Ralph is correct; its in a completely different league and we should not even think about that comparison. What I think we can consider is the regulations with regards to small, sub 250g drones, compared to, for example a paramotor pilot. Close to where I regularly fly my drone, for which I must now not only be in VLOS but also be able to visually observe the drone orientation without the use of the fly app, there is a paramotor club. The club location is not on any dronesafe/altitude angel map so without local knowledge you are not aware. So: a 14 stone guy with a petrol engine strapped to his back with probably only an altimeter and an air speed indicator can fly wherever he likes without a license or CAA approval up to 26,500ft and as low as he likes as long as he can see and reach a safe landing site. A drone pilot for a piece of plastic weighing the same as a pack of butter but with extensive telemetry from the fly app showing map, orientation, height speed, etc can't now fly beyond 50m without breaking the law. Go figure.

I do not know what, if any regs there are on those para flyers here in US but you are pretty much correct. Except I'm not sure about their ceiling here. It might be 18.000', where Class A airspace starts. For that matter, I can hop in my Cessna, turn off all radios and fly around at will, provided I stay clear of controlled and restricted airspace.

 

[Don Testme]

Someone in the pilot seat.

The ability to look around and keep situational awareness of the airspace around them.
Coupled to the fact a pilot on an aircraft in certainly at risk in an event, more care / awareness is naturally taken, while a drone pilot has no 'bodily risk' on the line and can become complacent with time.

Personally, I'm really comfortable flying BVLOS the very limited number of times I have done this, being able to fly, keep my drone safe via the feed, settings all done right for RTH with the surrounds etc.

But there's no way when X distance from my home point that I can A) tell an aircraft is coming closer to the airspace where I'm flying my drone, B) whether it is at risk from my drone's location in the airspace, or C) even if I did, what evasive action I should take.

Fact is I fly like this with my screen and telemetry 99% of a flight, but in all but extenuating situations it's kept close enough to be able to find it in the air quickly, and be in the same airspace as approaching manned aircraft in the rare instance this happens.

In 5-1/2 years, I really only recall one heli approach towards my drone's airspace, when I heard the distant blades beat, and I dropped to 15 - 20 metres until I was aware it or my drone wasn't a threat to the other.

You said "

The ability to look around and keep situational awareness of the airspace around them...

I am under the assumption, INSTRUMENT RATING, is so you can fly WITHOUT SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. All the manned pilot has to rely on is his instruments. In some cases the trainer will cover the windows so the pilot trainee can't see outside of the cockpit.

 

[Don Testme]

In addition to the above referenced equipment requirements, manned aircraft flying IFR are under verbal control and direction of ATC and their plane can be 'seen' on their screen. They follow direct paths to specific waypoints from beginning to end of the flight at specific altitudes. They do not fly willy nilly through the clouds. I'm wondering why one would want to fly a drone when you can't see it and it's camera can't see anything.

I was thinking that part you mention of communications with ATC. But then in some cases an Instrument Rating in certain cases has scenarios which there is no such communication possible.

Regarding drone instrumentaion: I had in mind, that the camera could be considered an instrument. At least in regards to drone flying.

 

[Don Testme]

I'm second guessing what Don's question is driving at so forgive me if i'm wrong. First off I have flown light aircraft and Ralph is correct; its in a completely different league and we should not even think about that comparison. What I think we can consider is the regulations with regards to small, sub 250g drones, compared to, for example a paramotor pilot. Close to where I regularly fly my drone, for which I must now not only be in VLOS but also be able to visually observe the drone orientation without the use of the fly app, there is a paramotor club. The club location is not on any dronesafe/altitude angel map so without local knowledge you are not aware. So: a 14 stone guy with a petrol engine strapped to his back with probably only an altimeter and an air speed indicator can fly wherever he likes without a license or CAA approval up to 26,500ft and as low as he likes as long as he can see and reach a safe landing site. A drone pilot for a piece of plastic weighing the same as a pack of butter but with extensive telemetry from the fly app showing map, orientation, height speed, etc can't now fly beyond 50m without breaking the law. Go figure.

Great comment.

 

[sar104]

You said "


I am under the assumption, INSTRUMENT RATING, is so you can fly WITHOUT SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. All the manned pilot has to rely on is his instruments. In some cases the trainer will cover the windows so the pilot trainee can't see outside of the cockpit.

Under IFR in controlled airspace, separation and situational awareness is handled by ATC. There is no comparable deconfliction system for UAVs. IFR in uncontrolled airspace is generally only applicable to departure and arrival from Class G airports, due to IFR minimums, and that's deconflicted by radio communications.

 

[PakNheat380]

As an instrument rated pilot for over 40 years I can only chuckle at some of the answers given to this question in this forum. Multiple instrument ratings, dual instruments, bodily risk?? Walleye Hunter is the closest to being correct. The quick & simple answer is an Instrument rated pilot files a flight plan with Air Traffic Control, is in radio contact with ATC from before taxiing, through takeoff, departure, enroute, approach, landing, and arrival. You can’t do that with a drone.

 

[Don Testme]

Under IFR in controlled airspace, separation and situational awareness is handled by ATC. There is no comparable deconfliction system for UAVs. IFR in uncontrolled airspace is generally only applicable to departure and arrival from Class G airports, due to IFR minimums, and that's deconflicted by radio communications.

Suppose the Manned aircraft's radio is out. Then what?

 

[Vic Moss]

Since this is an international forum, there is no one correct answer. I can only speak for the U.S.

First, drones are not instrument rated, pilots are. And RPICs will likely never actually be IFR rated (possible, but unlikely). At best, you'll be able to get waivers to fly under weather minimums. Those would be § 107.51 (c) & (d). There are currently (2/3/23) 15 § 107.51 (c)(d) waivers issued by the FAA, and 5 more for just § 107.51 (c). So 20 total § 107.51 waiver.

There is no IFR rating for UAS here, and it's very unlikely there ever will be. There will however likely be type certifications for drones to fly under IFR conditions at some point. And they'll need all sorts of Detect and Avoid (DAA) info on board, along with redundancies in DAA and comms/telemetry fed back to the RPIC. And to fly those drones, the RPIC will likely need one of the above mentioned waivers.

So to answer you question from an FAA point of view, there can't be IFR ratings for drones, only Type Certifications. And with the waiver system, probably never will be for RPICs.

I'm not sure how the CAA in AUS works, but that's the answer for the US RPICs and US registered UAS.

And as @PakNheat380 said, it's more about ATC communications/controlled airspace flights than actual BLVOS flights. Although BVLOS will also play a role in IFR conditions for drones.

 

[sar104]

Suppose the Manned aircraft's radio is out. Then what?

What if the engine fails? Then what? What if ATC radar coverage goes down? Then what? The answer is that unless you have a backup radio then you have an in-flight emergency, not normal operations.

Where are you going with this? Are you trying to conflate operations during equipment failure in a crewed aircraft with normal operations with a UAV to argue the latter should, by default, be permissible under equivalent (no deconfliction) conditions?

 

[Don Testme]

What if the engine fails? Then what? What if ATC radar coverage goes down? Then what? The answer is that unless you have a backup radio then you have an in-flight emergency, not normal operations.

Where are you going with this? Are you trying to conflate operations during equipment failure in a crewed aircraft with normal operations with a UAV to argue the latter should, by default, be permissible under equivalent (no deconfliction) conditions?

just a question. nothing more.

 

[Walleye Hunter]

Suppose the Manned aircraft's radio is out. Then what?

While I should know the answer to this should it happen, I do not. There is a squawk code to enter into the transponder for radio out situations . I'm thinking that one should continue flight as cleared or last given by ATC but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

 

[Reid937]

Suppose the Manned aircraft's radio is out. Then what?

Aviation light signals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Robert Prior]

Suppose the Manned aircraft's radio is out. Then what?

From the first Google hit when asking that question:

IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if subparagraph 2 above cannot be complied with, each pilot must continue the flight according to the following:

1. Route.
   1. By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
   2. If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the vector clearance;
   3. In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance; or
   4. In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance by the route filed in the flight plan.
2. Altitude. At the HIGHEST of the following altitudes or flight levels FOR THE ROUTE SEGMENT BEING FLOWN:
   1. The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
   2. The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
   3. The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.

Two-way Radio Communications Failure

www.faa.gov

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

You said "


I am under the assumption, INSTRUMENT RATING, is so you can fly WITHOUT SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. All the manned pilot has to rely on is his instruments. In some cases the trainer will cover the windows so the pilot trainee can't see outside of the cockpit.

Sure they'd train pilots for total black out, total whiteout, peas soup fog, torrential rain etc.
It was good to read about the light aircraft pilots comments on this re flight plan and ATC coordination, that makes the most sense for sure.

The questions and what ifs you post though (this and other posts) . . . are you just playing devils advocate, or constantly looking for ways / excuses to fly a drone way B(safe)VLOS ?

Do you support VLOS for drone pilots ?

I certainly haven't had too many experiences with aircraft anywhere near my 120m / 400' airspaces when flying.
The one I mentioned post #2, and another was a low flying shark spotter light plane that was visible miles away and obviously very much further offshore.
But I still try and keep my drone within earshot of my home point location, so I can be aware of any sort of light aircraft / heli that might be approaching.

It's great being able to fly by telemetry, I love it myself, just have to use common sense and think of what could happen in a worst case scenario, when all the bad planets may line up enough to create a danger for someone.
These do happen now and then.

 

[Don Testme]

Sure they'd train pilots for total black out, total whiteout, peas soup fog, torrential rain etc.
It was good to read about the light aircraft pilots comments on this re flight plan and ATC coordination, that makes the most sense for sure.

The questions and what ifs you post though (this and other posts) . . . are you just playing devils advocate, or constantly looking for ways / excuses to fly a drone way B(safe)VLOS ?

Do you support VLOS for drone pilots ?

I certainly haven't had too many experiences with aircraft anywhere near my 120m / 400' airspaces when flying.
The one I mentioned post #2, and another was a low flying shark spotter light plane that was visible miles away and obviously very much further offshore.
But I still try and keep my drone within earshot of my home point location, so I can be aware of any sort of light aircraft / heli that might be approaching.

It's great being able to fly by telemetry, I love it myself, just have to use common sense and think of what could happen in a worst case scenario, when all the bad planets may line up enough to create a danger for someone.
These do happen now and then.

I brought it up because, I know most UAV pilots rarely look at their drone when in VLOS and they certainly can't look at their drone in BVLOS. Most PICS are flying simply by looking at their remote's screen output. In that sense, it seems most UAV pilots are flying using instruments only.

Flying UAVs in VLOS without looking at it seemed similar to a manned pilot flying blind when they are flying under their Instrument readouts only, with radio comms disabled. I lack knowledge of instrument rated pilots and what instruments they are using and what circumstances they are under when they have to fly without situational awareness.

I thought the members could educate me on this subject matter. I'm not condoning VLOS or BVLOS, I'm just wondering how much difference there is with a Manned Pilot flying instruments only without ATC contact and a Drone Pilot Flying BVLOS.

Maybe one day, UAVs and their pilots could start a donation system or a fee that we could put toward radio towers for UAV Pilots. Now, that would be interesting, if it were feasible. Maybe in a century?