What goes into a manned Pilot getting an instrument rating to fly? What do drones lack that prevents them from being instrument rated?

[SethB]

I brought it up because, I know most UAV pilots rarely look at their drone when in VLOS and they certainly can't look at their drone in BVLOS. Most PICS are flying simply by looking at their remote's screen output. In that sense, it seems most UAV pilots are flying using instruments only…

That’s news to me, as most all the UAV pilots I know are maintaining VLOS for navigation and referring to the controller screen to compose shots.

It’s just too easy to get taken down by a power line or small branch that can’t be seen on the screen… and then there are the action tracking shots with the drone rolling sideways in flight, where you have no idea at all what you’re about to crash into if you’re not keeping visual contact.

In my opinion the regs about maintaining situational awareness via VLOS/direct vision are reasonable in my flying for photos and video.

I have a hard time believing that outside of FPV “Most PICS are flying simply by looking at their remote's screen output.” The people I see flying FPV locally are using VOs.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

I brought it up because, I know most UAV pilots rarely look at their drone when in VLOS and they certainly can't look at their drone in BVLOS. Most PICS are flying simply by looking at their remote's screen output. In that sense, it seems most UAV pilots are flying using instruments only.

Oh . . . that's an entirely different scenario.
What you describe is still within VLOS, as long as you can quickly see your drone when needed.

I agree with you totally, I'm definitely flying by telemetry 99% of the time . . . about the only time I really keep my eyes on the drone is when I'm taking off and landing.
Heck, if I really wanted to I could easily do the take off and landing on the screen too, but that is naturally easier by watching it with the naked eyes, and once away you naturally switch to the device / telemetry.

As I mainly take video, I am just on the screen virtually ALL the time, watching the composure, adjusting the odd intelligent setting, yawing, moving the gimbal etc all to the end of capturing what I want just as needed.

Even taking photos, you must be on the device screen almost all the time, keeping an eye on the changing scene awaiting a perfect shot, then compose, and snap.

Telemetry also shows you exactly where the drone is in relation to the home point (I generally turn to face to the rough area of airspace my drone is located, so controller has best signal), direction the drone is facing . . . if I'm using a strobe in some flight parameters, that really helps you to keep to VLOS quite easily.

The spirit of VLOS has been discussed here many times, and mostly people agree if you can quickly acquire your drone in the air when you (or an authority) might need, you are adhering to the intentions VLOS is needed for.

As long as my drone is generally close enough within earshot of surrounding airspace (where my drone is too), and I can react accordingly if I hear some thing coming along that's obviously manned.

 

[Fergus]

A full answer to this would take volumes.
Flying an airplane according to Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) requires a qualified pilot & airplane with duplicate radio and Nav. equipment and an airframe that can handle all the environmental conditions (including rain, ice etc). There are multiple instrument ratings requiring particular equipment and qualifications and allow operations in different visibilities and conditions. The pilots has to have completed and been tested under a long list of conditions and have extensive knowledge of meteorology, navigation, equipment & avionics, theory of flight, airmanship, human factors (illusions etc) and safety. Take a glance at pilots basic bible called From the Ground Up to understand that flying in instrument conditions is in a different league to operating a small drone.
On top of all this, remember that airplanes under IFR operate in restricted areas like approach paths into airports, tracks in the sky and predetermined flight levels following radio navigation aids.
all this for the safety of the pilot, their passengers and life on the ground.

Curious how you're able to look around in IFR conditions

Someone in the pilot seat.

The ability to look around and keep situational awareness of the airspace around them.
Coupled to the fact a pilot on an aircraft in certainly at risk in an event, more care / awareness is naturally taken, while a drone pilot has no 'bodily risk' on the line and can become complacent with time.

Personally, I'm really comfortable flying BVLOS the very limited number of times I have done this, being able to fly, keep my drone safe via the feed, settings all done right for RTH with the surrounds etc.

But there's no way when X distance from my home point that I can A) tell an aircraft is coming closer to the airspace where I'm flying my drone, B) whether it is at risk from my drone's location in the airspace, or C) even if I did, what evasive action I should take.

Fact is I fly like this with my screen and telemetry 99% of a flight, but in all but extenuating situations it's kept close enough to be able to find it in the air quickly, and be in the same airspace as approaching manned aircraft in the rare instance this happens.

In 5-1/2 years, I really only recall one heli approach towards my drone's airspace, when I heard the distant blades beat, and I dropped to 15 - 20 metres until I was aware it or my drone wasn't a threat to the other.

Curious how you're able to look around to keep situational awareness in IFR conditions. If you could look around wouldn't that, by definition, be VFR conditions? I didn't do a lot of IFR training but what I did required wearing a hood so I couldn't look around.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Curious how you're able to look around in IFR conditions

Curious how you're able to look around to keep situational awareness in IFR conditions. If you could look around wouldn't that, by definition, be VFR conditions? I didn't do a lot of IFR training but what I did required wearing a hood so I couldn't look around.

Examples might be night flight blackout and seeing a drones strobe lighting, or in and out of fog / low cloud and seeing something in the air nearby.

It really is a moot point to a drone pilot that's flying by telemetry / device screen, what matters is drone pilots flying under 400' do have situational awareness in their nearby airspace, be able to find their drone in the sky, and if a drone pilot does become aware of another aircraft nearby, what the drone pilot can do to mitigate the two meeting.

Pilots of manned aircraft really don't have an opportunity to do much, many wouldn't even see a drone in many cases when a drone is 'hidden' in what should be lower altitude against terrain / other clutter below.

Of course, manned aircraft pilots should (would, I hope) try and stay above 500' or more whenever possible, so the separation is well established.

 

[lookout]

Some people have problems telling where they are going in broad daylight with a drone. It is not a good plane for instrument conditions and even if you could, you'd get mowed down in the clouds. Fly by wire is not a good way to tell where you are or where you are going.

 

[Don Testme]

Some people have problems telling where they are going in broad daylight with a drone. It is not a good plane for instrument conditions and even if you could, you'd get mowed down in the clouds. Fly by wire is not a good way to tell where you are or where you are going.

You know what? As I think about it, I find that using VLOS only without looking at the instruments panel of the UAV can and is more dangerous than if you just flew with the drone's instrument/image panel without VLOS.

 

[Don Testme]

YOU SAID: "I agree with you totally, I'm definitely flying by telemetry 99% of the time . . . about the only time I really keep my eyes on the drone is when I'm taking off and landing.
Heck, if I really wanted to I could easily do the take off and landing on the screen too, but that is naturally easier by watching it with the naked eyes, and once away you naturally switch to the device / telemetry."

I do the same. I even find just flying by VLOS, can be more dangerous than not using instruments. It's easier to hit houses and trees when just using VLOS. I need the instruments to tell me my altitude, position,direction, speed and give me a good visual of what is directly in front of my drone.

Using the image screen, I can even see power and telephone lines, which I wouldn't see in VLOS alone. Also, if I just use VLOS, I would only be able to fly maybe 400 ft away from my launch position. Then, I'd probably hit something eventually. The drone instrument DATA is extremely important.

Regarding landing and takeoff with instrument and imaging, this works just fine. I purposely practiced landing on a 3 by 3 foot plank next to my house, while I stayed inside my house so I couldn't hear or see the drone. I did it 10 times and landed on the plank perfectly. These were manually controlled landings with no obstacle avoidance aid or GPS landing help.

 

[DonRH]

There is no comparison in the two.. I have flown with my son many times at night and daytime under IFR and there is no way to get and use all the information and training needed to make a save IFR flight with a drone..



I have flown drones for 10 years and my son has a commercial pilots license and now is a County Deputy runs and flys the drones for the local Sheriff Dept

 

[Don Testme]

There is no comparison in the two.. I have flown with my son many times at night and daytime under IFR and there is no way to get and use all the information and training needed to make a save IFR flight with a drone..



I have flown drones for 10 years and my son has a commercial pilots license and now is a County Deputy runs and flys the drones for the local Sheriff Dept

I'm not suprised. I hear instrument rating is complex. I might have to take some time and read the key points. But I assume that is probably a pretty long list

 

[sar104]

I'm not suprised. I hear instrument rating is complex. I might have to take some time and read the key points. But I assume that is probably a pretty long list

You are still completely missing the point, which is that situational awareness under IFR is provided by ATC. What you are visualizing as IFR flight is just the process of using instruments, rather than visual observation of attitude, to keep an aircraft in controlled flight and not impact terrain. That alone doesn't provide deconfliction with other traffic. ATC does that. It's not a matter of complexity. There is no equivalent, yet, for sUAS operations.

 

[Don Testme]

You are still completely missing the point, which is that situational awareness under IFR is provided by ATC. What you are visualizing as IFR flight is just the process of using instruments, rather than visual observation of attitude, to keep an aircraft in controlled flight and not impact terrain. That alone doesn't provide deconfliction with other traffic. ATC does that. It's not a matter of complexity. There is no equivalent, yet, for sUAS operations.

With your knowledge, i'm being serious, do you feel you could suggest an equivalent for sUAS (55lbs or 25kg Drones) operators for deconfliction with other traffic. Maybe not in 2023, but maybe a decade or more from today. Maybe someday they will put a drone ATC personell at all airports (US or Canada). Maybe. But I think the expense would be too much. And how would ATC communicate? Call the cell phone you put in on registration day?

Deconfliction= coordination of flights, to reduce the risk of accidents or incidents
IFR= Instrument flight rules for those that don't know.
ATC= Air Traffic Control for those who don't know that acronym.

Oh, How exactly does ATC provide Deconfliction? Most importantly when comms are out? What role does the pilot Take?

I'm going to make the assumption that the Emergency landing Manned aircraft pilot has to stay at the last altitude and heading he was told to go, unless there is a closer and safer landing strip nearby. If he has no ATC comms (s)he then keeps going and uses a map to find the nearest landing site and tries landing there; all the while ATC is informing other aircraft that there is another plane with no comms and to give that aircraft right of way until it lands. Is that right?

 

[AlanL]

With your knowledge, i'm being serious, do you feel you could suggest an equivalent for sUAS (55lbs or 25kg Drones) operators for deconfliction with other traffic. Maybe not in 2023, but maybe a decade or more from today. Maybe someday they will put a drone ATC personell at all airports (US or Canada). Maybe. But I think the expense would be too much. And how would ATC communicate? Call the cell phone you put in on registration day?

Deconfliction= coordination of flights, to reduce the risk of accidents or incidents
IFR= Instrument flight rules for those that don't know.
ATC= Air Traffic Control for those who don't know that acronym.

Oh, How exactly does ATC provide Deconfliction? Most importantly when comms are out? What role does the pilot Take?

I'm going to make the assumption that the Emergency landing Manned aircraft pilot has to stay at the last altitude and heading he was told to go, unless there is a closer and safer landing strip nearby. If he has no ATC comms (s)he then keeps going and uses a map to find the nearest landing site and tries landing there; all the while ATC is informing other aircraft that there is another plane with no comms and to give that aircraft right of way until it lands. Is that right?

If you are really interested in what the FAA is doing at the moment then look at the FAA BVLOS ARC Final Report. It is not a short read by any means but almost all of your speculation is already being addressed. I have no interest in trying to summarize the various subcommittee findings for all of the topics covered in that report.

 

[Don Testme]

If you are really interested in what the FAA is doing at the moment then look at the FAA BVLOS ARC Final Report. It is not a short read by any means but almost all of your speculation is already being addressed. I have no interest in trying to summarize the various subcommittee findings for all of the topics covered in that report.

Holy Moley, That report is huge. If you read any of it, did you see any deconflicting rules for sUAS?

I'm not going to read much of it either. That is a lot of reading.

 

[AlanL]

Holy Moley, That report is huge. If you read any of it, did you see any deconflicting rules for sUAS?

I'm not going to read much of it either. That is a lot of reading.

Actually I did read the whole thing. Not in one sitting to be certain. There is a pretty long section on air safety with drones from a subcommittee that was tasked with looking into it. Most of it dealt with delivery drones and manned aircraft on the commercial side. My take was that it's still up to us to avoid all of them. It was recommended that delivery service unmanned aircraft should transmit ADS-B.

 

[Don Testme]

... It was recommended that delivery service unmanned aircraft should transmit ADS-B.

That is a good common-sense idea.

 

[Walleye Hunter]

With your knowledge, i'm being serious, do you feel you could suggest an equivalent for sUAS (55lbs or 25kg Drones) operators for deconfliction with other traffic. Maybe not in 2023, but maybe a decade or more from today. Maybe someday they will put a drone ATC personell at all airports (US or Canada). Maybe. But I think the expense would be too much. And how would ATC communicate? Call the cell phone you put in on registration day?

Deconfliction= coordination of flights, to reduce the risk of accidents or incidents
IFR= Instrument flight rules for those that don't know.
ATC= Air Traffic Control for those who don't know that acronym.

Oh, How exactly does ATC provide Deconfliction? Most importantly when comms are out? What role does the pilot Take?

I'm going to make the assumption that the Emergency landing Manned aircraft pilot has to stay at the last altitude and heading he was told to go, unless there is a closer and safer landing strip nearby. If he has no ATC comms (s)he then keeps going and uses a map to find the nearest landing site and tries landing there; all the while ATC is informing other aircraft that there is another plane with no comms and to give that aircraft right of way until it lands. Is that right?

Answers given in posts #16 and 18.

 

[Don Testme]

Answers given in posts #16 and 18.

The link in #18s post is a very good explanation of what to do. I would bet if it's a really dangerous situation, they might have the national guard go up and help the disabled aircraft get to an air strip.

 

[Walleye Hunter]

The link in #18s post is a very good explanation of what to do. I would bet if it's a really dangerous situation, they might have the national guard go up and help the disabled aircraft get to an air strip.

I don't know about that. There are a few things that come into play. First one, if it's in hard IFR conditions, you couldn't see each other and even if you could, it could be intermittent. The best and safest thing to do is continue as planned and as they have on file and in their hands. That way, they know where you are and where you are going and can ensure that your flight path is clear of others. Part of the planning includes mapping out your flight on the computer and on paper and it's not so easy to fly an airplane and redo all of that. All ATC does is control the flight path and ensure aircraft separation, the pilot flies the plane. If coms are out, both of those things can still be accomplished safely. If everything goes out, that's a different story.

 

[lookout]

That is a good common-sense idea.

They wouldn't have to fight for airspace with us little drones so much. But if they're capable of going faster with a payload more than 55 pounds, they'll have an n number anyhow.

 

[sar104]

With your knowledge, i'm being serious, do you feel you could suggest an equivalent for sUAS (55lbs or 25kg Drones) operators for deconfliction with other traffic. Maybe not in 2023, but maybe a decade or more from today. Maybe someday they will put a drone ATC personell at all airports (US or Canada). Maybe. But I think the expense would be too much. And how would ATC communicate? Call the cell phone you put in on registration day?

Deconfliction= coordination of flights, to reduce the risk of accidents or incidents
IFR= Instrument flight rules for those that don't know.
ATC= Air Traffic Control for those who don't know that acronym.

Oh, How exactly does ATC provide Deconfliction? Most importantly when comms are out? What role does the pilot Take?

I'm going to make the assumption that the Emergency landing Manned aircraft pilot has to stay at the last altitude and heading he was told to go, unless there is a closer and safer landing strip nearby. If he has no ATC comms (s)he then keeps going and uses a map to find the nearest landing site and tries landing there; all the while ATC is informing other aircraft that there is another plane with no comms and to give that aircraft right of way until it lands. Is that right?

I'm pretty sure that the answer is going to be automated collision avoidance. RID plus ADS-B or whatever replaces those systems that includes all manned and unmanned traffic. It's just not there yet. Not even close.