Another incident for the FAA.

[raymo]

Legalities or not, what was done by this pilot was foolish at very best. My brother, who flew Sikorsky S-58 choppers told me that flying low around camps (he water bombed fires mostly in Northern Saskatchewan) was always a great risk because of the possibility of flying debris. Tarps were especially a problem as at low altitudes, a ring vortex is established that causes debris to get thrown into the air that then rotates up and then back in toward the main rotor. You can actually see that starting to occur in this video. They're just really, REALLY fortunate that one of those tents/covers didn't fly up like some of the other debris actually did. Those tents and covers in this crowd are great tarps. They say there are few old helicopter pilots. My brother is one of them for good reason. I'm thinking of sending him this video to see what a safe, old pilot might comment on that stupidity.

 

[STKNRUD]

 

[tonyb]

It is likely the pilot made the decision to "buzz" on his own without a directive from higher up. Being in law enforcement for 31 years and involved in crowd control, I can appreciate any assistance controlling a drunk out of order mob that can very quickly turn on the badge, even if the help came from the air. We don't know what that pilot was observing from his vantage point. He may have seen that officers were in imminent danger/being converged upon by such well behaved respectful students. I'm not condoning nor condemning what the pilot did, just offering a different perspective

 

[erkme73]

Chicago Police Officer Jason Van Dyke guilty of second-degree murder in 2014 shooting death of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald

Yes, but at the risk of going further OT, keep in mind that the agencies involved did everything they could to prevent that outcome - including sending a team of officers to local businesses with cameras to DELETE their video. That particular case has a good ending, but it wasn't without herculean efforts on the part of fellow blues to make it go away. Publicity and cameras in the hands of private citizens are helping to turn the tables and expose the corruption.

LE is a necessary evil. I'm grateful that there are people willing to protect others. But I'm not naive enough to think that having absolute authority, with the state at your back, doesn't result in abuses and cover ups. With most citizens having video cameras in their pockets, and private/residential security cameras popping up in areas previously unheard of, it is getting harder for authorities to play 'above the law' as in times past. Why do you think .gov doesn't want civilians to have eyes in the skies? Safety? Sure. But it's a lot harder for corrupt officials (not just law enforcement) to carry out illegalities if cameras are floating above them (or within eye-shot).

 

[STKNRUD]

It is likely the pilot made the decision to "buzz" on his own without a directive from higher up. Being in law enforcement for 31 years and involved in crowd control, I can appreciate any assistance controlling a drunk out of order mob that can very quickly turn on the badge, even if the help came from the air. We don't know what that pilot was observing from his vantage point. He may have seen that officers were in imminent danger/being converged upon by such well behaved respectful students. I'm not condoning nor condemning what the pilot did, just offering a different perspective

Good point and perspective, IMO. Thanks for both the perspective and your service in LE.

 

[sar104]

Yes, but at the risk of going further OT, keep in mind that the agencies involved did everything they could to prevent that outcome - including sending a team of officers to local businesses with cameras to DELETE their video. That particular case has a good ending, but it wasn't without herculean efforts on the part of fellow blues to make it go away. Publicity and cameras in the hands of private citizens are helping to turn the tables and expose the corruption.

LE is a necessary evil. I'm grateful that there are people willing to protect others. But I'm not naive enough to think that having absolute authority, with the state at your back, doesn't result in abuses and cover ups. With most citizens having video cameras in their pockets, and private/residential security cameras popping up in areas previously unheard of, it is getting harder for authorities to play 'above the law' as in times past. Why do you think .gov doesn't want civilians to have eyes in the skies? Safety? Sure. But it's a lot harder for corrupt officials (not just law enforcement) to carry out illegalities if cameras are floating above them (or within eye-shot).

I agree with much of that, with the caveat that I don't think the US Government is against private use of UAVs. And I'm pretty sure that LE, in general, is far more worried by private citizens with cell phone cameras than drones, at least for now.

 

[raymo]

It is likely the pilot made the decision to "buzz" on his own without a directive from higher up. Being in law enforcement for 31 years and involved in crowd control, I can appreciate any assistance controlling a drunk out of order mob that can very quickly turn on the badge, even if the help came from the air. We don't know what that pilot was observing from his vantage point. He may have seen that officers were in imminent danger/being converged upon by such well behaved respectful students. I'm not condoning nor condemning what the pilot did, just offering a different perspective

I would agree that officers often have spur of the moment decisions to make, which sometimes these have some rather bad consequences. I cannot justify the behaviour of the mob of students in this case (maybe they were a drunken mob, I don't know), but the decision to fly low, and potentially risk crashing due to the real danger of flying debris put himself, his fellow officers and students in grave danger. Maybe just a case of inexperience in this case. Officer friends of mine are heroes. But other officers I have known in the past are not what I would call shining examples of humanity either. They are all just people that have exceptionally high expectations placed on them. Sometimes they live up to that, and other times, not so much.

The issue here as we discuss this, is whether the FAA will take any action on this situation. My suspicion is not, as there seems to be an "out" for the pilot. Don't ever try this with a drone though. You WILL have the book thrown at you. The above case could have no good outcome. What would the flying officers do? Land the chopper and join the mob? Here is a case when the police could have been using something like a Mavic to surveil the crowd and get the same information as they were with eyes in the sky. But for whatever reason, police forces, fire protection agencies and other organizations have failed to recognize the utility of UAVs. Seems like amateurs are leading the way in terms of entrepreneurial ideas. I have suggested shark monitoring with drones. Sharks are easily seen from above. Haven't seen this introduced and I don't expect it anytime soon. Maybe this "shark mob" would have been far better monitored by a police flown Mavic rather than a full blown helicopter assault. A crashed Mavic. Big deal. A crashed full sized copter. BIG DEAL!

 

[STKNRUD]

I agree with much of that, with the caveat that I don't think the US Government is against private use of UAVs. And I'm pretty sure that LE, in general, is far more worried by private citizens with cell phone cameras than drones, at least for now.

“Necessary”....yes! “Evil”....hardly!!

 

[ac0j]

What I get from thread this so far is that the FAA is OK with 2000+lbs helicopters flying over crowds at any altitude, but dont think drones are safe over crowds at all.....

 

[sar104]

What I get from thread this so far is that the FAA is OK with 2000+lbs helicopters flying over crowds at any altitude, but dont think drones are safe over crowds at all.....

No - the FAA is not OK with that at all.

 

[ac0j]

No - the FAA is not OK with that at all.

We should soon find out. if they dont take action over this, any future drone cases would be trivial.

 

[sar104]

We should soon find out. if they dont take action over this, any future drone cases would be trivial.

Right - LE drone cases maybe. If only the law were that simple.

 

[Slim.slamma]

What I get from thread this so far is that the FAA is OK with 2000+lbs helicopters flying over crowds at any altitude, but dont think drones are safe over crowds at all.....

Fly Safe they say

 

[Mavic-Markie93]

It is likely the pilot made the decision to "buzz" on his own without a directive from higher up. Being in law enforcement for 31 years and involved in crowd control, I can appreciate any assistance controlling a drunk out of order mob that can very quickly turn on the badge, even if the help came from the air. We don't know what that pilot was observing from his vantage point. He may have seen that officers were in imminent danger/being converged upon by such well behaved respectful students. I'm not condoning nor condemning what the pilot did, just offering a different perspective

Flying a helicopter to harass and possibly endanger 100's of people in order to exact justice on a few drunk college punks?

It reminds me of those infamous high-speed chases in L.A. in the mid-90s that got so much publicity. Angry and reckless cops flying down the freeway at 100+ MPH to catch a bank robber --- so many innocent lives they put at risk over cash that will be easily replaced by a bank's insurance company.

 

[Doug Lare]

A few things - I saw the news clip, the helicopter was low and then pulled up when debris started kicking up. The chances of the tail rotor being damaged in this situation is minimal (I worked on UH-1s, A-Stars and jet Rangers)

Police helicopters are operated as "Pubic Use" aircraft and in many cases are not subject to FAA oversight. This is what the FAA says about public use operations:

Statutory Criteria. PAO are limited by the statute to certain government operations within U.S. airspace. Although these operations must continue to comply with certain general operating rules, including those applicable to all aircraft in the National Airspace System (NAS), other civil certification and safety oversight regulations do not apply to these operations. Accordingly, most aspects of PAO are not subject to FAA oversight.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_00-1_1A.pdf

Good luck on trying to get the FAA to violate this pilot, especially if he was operating as part of law enforcement and please don't even try to compare or justify this to some of the stunts pulled off by idiots flying drones recklessly

Exactly. He was flying legally, on law enforcement duty, and accomplished what needed to. Police Officers, State Troopers, and Mounted Units, all were shoved, pushed to the ground, had various articles thrown at them. The dusting they received was minimal, compared to what they could have received. Unruly , rioting, drunken crowds, needed to be controlled before someone was hurt badly or killed. And, by the way, it worked.

 

[Chip]

Exactly. He was flying legally, on law enforcement duty, and accomplished what needed to. Police Officers, State Troopers, and Mounted Units, all were shoved, pushed to the ground, had various articles thrown at them. The dusting they received was minimal, compared to what they could have received.
Unruly , rioting, drunken crowds, needed to be controlled before someone was hurt badly or killed. And, by the way, it worked.

Whether he was flying legally depends on whether using rotor wash to punish or disperse the crowd was reasonable under the circumstances. I do not know exactly what preceded this but using a helicopter in this way seems unreasonably dangerous to me. Was there no alternative? As others previously noted, the "dusting" could have easily included sending a tent peg or a beer bottle through someone's face and I wonder for what exactly?

 

[Mavic-Markie93]

Exactly. He was flying legally, on law enforcement duty, and accomplished what needed to. Police Officers, State Troopers, and Mounted Units, all were shoved, pushed to the ground, had various articles thrown at them. The dusting they received was minimal, compared to what they could have received. Unruly , rioting, drunken crowds, needed to be controlled before someone was hurt badly or killed. And, by the way, it worked.

You're obviously pro-cop, but you're simply wrong.

Preserving the safety of cops should not the 1st priority of cops --- it should be preserving the public safety. State trooper pilot was wantonly disregarding the safety of hundreds of people in order to assist the safety of a few troopers on the ground who might suffer a "sprained wrist".

And you saying "by the way, it worked" is awfully ignorant and pompous when it comes your idea about effective law enforcement. We don't chop off the hands of shoplifters, and we don't blow up somebody's car if they're speeding --- both of which would qualify as "by the way, it works".

 

[packnrat]

forget the debris flying around that can harm people. what about there hearing. i bet some there did get permit hearing loss due to the very stupid act.
but then cops get a free PAID vacation for punishment.

 

[Lamar Watson]

Thanks for sharing the news

 

[SteveCA]

( Mod Removed )He needs to have his license revoked and prosecuted for reckless endangerment! As others have said, that debris could easily disable the tail rotor which would send the heli spinning out of control resulting in numerous dead and maimed people!

Even without the debris, that is a reckless move by a total idiot!

Having flown helicopters, this is unconscionable behavior by this pilot!