Flying over beach allowed?

[jimAIR2]

I'm a fairly new recreational pilot flying a Mavic Air 2. I recently shot a video moving over a beach with scattered people below. It does not pause and hover there, it just flies over the beach at about 100' and out over the water. I've seen quite a few similar videos posted on youtube, but I'm hesitant to upload it because I'm unsure of the rule about flying over people. Any advice?

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

Technically, flying directly over people in the US requires complying with the flying over people rules. The only way a DJI drone qualifies is if you use a Mini 2 with prop guards, and a "Japanese battery" which is lighter than the standard so that your total weight stays under .55 pounds at take-off. Which means most of us aren't allowed to fly directly over people. But my understanding is that "directly" is quite specific, meaning that if the drone dropped straight down it would land on someone's body. So with a little care you can probably get great beach videos without violating this rule.

 

[brett8883]

I'm a fairly new recreational pilot flying a Mavic Air 2. I recently shot a video moving over a beach with scattered people below. It does not pause and hover there, it just flies over the beach at about 100' and out over the water. I've seen quite a few similar videos posted on youtube, but I'm hesitant to upload it because I'm unsure of the rule about flying over people. Any advice?

The answer is complicated because there are several layers to this and it’s largely a subjective determination. Is it clear and obvious that you broke a rule? No… but it is in a bit of a murky gray area. If flying for recreational purposes you could probably get away with it.

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

The answer is complicated because there are several layers to this and it’s largely a subjective determination. Is it clear and obvious that you broke a rule? No… but it is in a bit of a murky gray area. If flying for recreational purposes you could probably get away with it.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider murky? I think the rules are pretty clear-cut. Pilot Institute has a nice video (free) on the subject. Though I agree that if there wasn't an incident and nobody present complained you would probably "get away with it" even if you incidentally overflew someone.

 

[brett8883]

Technically, flying directly over people in the US requires complying with the flying over people rules. The only way a DJI drone qualifies is if you use a Mini 2 with prop guards, and a "Japanese battery" which is lighter than the standard so that your total weight stays under .55 pounds at take-off. Which means most of us aren't allowed to fly directly over people. But my understanding is that "directly" is quite specific, meaning that if the drone dropped straight down it would land on someone's body. So with a little care you can probably get great beach videos without violating this rule.

Keep in mind that is only applicable to part 107 operations and does not apply to recreational pilots.

Flying over people is not against the statutory conditions for the limited exception for recreational operations but if you take a really strict approach to it there could be CBO restrictions that apply. If flying under the AMA CBO guidelines for example the AMA says to avoid flying over unprotected people. Notice it doesn’t say you can’t… it just says to avoid it. The CBO requirements also haven’t taken effect yet

 

[brett8883]

Out of curiosity, what do you consider murky? I think the rules are pretty clear-cut. Pilot Institute has a nice video (free) on the subject. Though I agree that if there wasn't an incident and nobody present complained you would probably "get away with it" even if you incidentally overflew someone.

See my response to your earlier post above

 

[Don Testme]

You can fly over people and traffic when going from point A to Point B. The rule just says you are not supposed to hover or repeatedly fly back and forth over them. It's OK to traverse across a group of people. Just don't stop, make circles, or repeated flybies over them.

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

See my response to your earlier post above

OK, I'll give you that some people consider that murky. My read is that something explicitly prohibited by part 107 is prohibited for everyone, unless is explicitly allowed in the text of the exception ( USC 44809). I'm not a lawyer, so am not really in position to debate. But for a newcomer who wants to follow the rules, I would not recommend flying over people without advice from someone who is a lawyer. Oh, and by the way, the Pilot Institute video also says that flying under the recreational exception does not get you out of the flight over people rules.

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

You can fly over people and traffic when going from point A to Point B. The rule just says you are not supposed to hover or repeatedly fly back and forth over them. It's OK to traverse across a group of people. Just don't stop, make circles, or repeated flybies over them.

Can you cite a regulation that allows this?

 

[brett8883]

OK, I'll give you that some people consider that murky. My read is that something explicitly prohibited by part 107 is prohibited for everyone, unless is explicitly allowed in the text of the exception ( USC 44809). I'm not a lawyer, so am not really in position to debate. But for a newcomer who wants to follow the rules, I would not recommend flying over people without advice from someone who is a lawyer. Oh, and by the way, the Pilot Institute video also says that flying under the recreational exception does not get you out of the flight over people rules.

It works the opposite of that. As long as you follow all of the statutory rules for the limited exception for recreational operations than none of the part 107 rules apply. There is some overlap.

Think of it like this. Part 107 applies except if you meet all of these requirements.

The FAA spells this out quite clearly at the link below and here are the statutory rules. Notice that none of them mention flying over people.

Recreational Flyers & Modeler Community-Based Organizations

www.faa.gov

1. Fly only for recreational purposes (enjoyment).

2. Follow the safety guidelines of an FAA-recognized Community Based Organization (CBO).

Note: We have not yet begun officially recognizing CBOs. Recreational flyers are directed to follow the safety guidelines of existing aeromodelling organizations or use the FAA provided safety guidelines per Advisory Circular 91-57B.

3. Keep your drone within the visual line of sight or use a visual observer who is co-located (physically next to) and in direct communication with you.

4. Give way to and do not interfere with manned aircraft.

5. Fly at or below 400' in controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, and E) only with prior authorization by using LAANC or DroneZone.

6. Fly at or below 400 feet in Class G (uncontrolled) airspace.

Note: Flying drones in certain airspace is not allowed. Classes of airspace and flying restrictions can be found on our B4UFLY app or the UAS Facility Maps webpage.

7. Take The Recreational UAS Safety Test (TRUST) and carry proof of test passage.

8. Have a current registration, mark (PDF) your drones on the outside with the registration number, and carry proof of registration with you.

9. Do not operate your drone in a dangerous manner. For example:

-Do not interfere with emergency response or law enforcement activities.

-Do not fly under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

 

[Don Testme]

Can you cite a regulation that allows this?

from faa.gov

"

• The small unmanned aircraft does not maintain sustained flight over any person unless that person is participating directly in the operation or located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft.
• Note: Sustained flight over an open-air assembly includes hovering above the heads of persons gathered in an open-air assembly, flying back and forth over an open-air assembly, or circling above the assembly in such a way that the small unmanned aircraft remains above some part the assembly. ‘Sustained flight’ over an open-air assembly of people in a Category 1, 2, or 4 operation does not include a brief, one-time transiting over a portion of the assembled gathering, where the transit is merely incidental to a point-to-point operation unrelated to the assembly.

 

[mobilehomer]

from faa.gov

"

• The small unmanned aircraft does not maintain sustained flight over any person unless that person is participating directly in the operation or located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft.
• Note: Sustained flight over an open-air assembly includes hovering above the heads of persons gathered in an open-air assembly, flying back and forth over an open-air assembly, or circling above the assembly in such a way that the small unmanned aircraft remains above some part the assembly. ‘Sustained flight’ over an open-air assembly of people in a Category 1, 2, or 4 operation does not include a brief, one-time transiting over a portion of the assembled gathering, where the transit is merely incidental to a point-to-point operation unrelated to the assembly.

This is a Part 107 ruling. Not applicable.See Brett8883 response. One other thing to keep in mind, takeoff and landing. Is that legal where you are? Locals cannot control airspace, but they can legislate takeoff, landing and control space.

 

[brett8883]

But for a newcomer who wants to follow the rules, I would not recommend flying over people without advice from someone who is a lawyer.

That’s the part where I say it’s murky and complicated. When the CBO requirements go into effect it would come down to did he do what was necessary to fulfill his obligation to “avoid people.” The AMA covers everything from rockets and fixed wing jet engine powered models so they don’t have a one size fits all explanation, it depends on the capabilities of your craft. Is a beach with scattered bystanders an appropriate place to fly a quad rotor drone with vtol capability and very reliable avionics? Murky.

Oh, and by the way, the Pilot Institute video also says that flying under the recreational exception does not get you out of the flight over people rules.

That’s not necessarily the case. Seeing that it’s not a statutory rule it would depend on the CBO rules one flies under. It could be true if the CBO uses the same language as the part 107 but the AMA’s guidelines which are the most likely to be used do not so that statement is more false than it is true.

 

[Don Testme]

This is a Part 107 ruling. Not applicable.See Brett8883 response. One other thing to keep in mind, takeoff and landing. Is that legal where you are? Locals cannot control airspace, but they can legislate takeoff, landing and control space.

Does the FAA specifically address transient flight over people or vehicles when flying recreationally? If they don't address it, then, is there no rule against or for it?

 

[brett8883]

Does the FAA specifically address transient flight over people or vehicles when flying recreationally? If they don't address it, then, is there no rule against or for it?

Exactly. Flying over people is not addressed what so ever in the regulations for recreational flyers other than to follow the guidelines of a community based organization.

However, I’m not really sure what you shared about the 107 rules relates to general part 107 operations either. What you cited has to be read in context and it’s unclear to me what exactly that means and if it’s applicable to if not flying under one of the 4 categories for flying over people. I really mean I don’t know… I worry it’s one passage that sounds like one thing out of context by itself and another if read in context of the full rule. I just don’t know

 

[brett8883]

@BigAl07 or @Vic Moss whats your understanding of §107.39? I’ve heard the part you can traverse over people if going from A to B but now that I’m reading the whole thing in context it seems like that only applies if operating under categories 1, 2, or 3. Or is there some other FAA guidance on this issue? If you really can’t traverse over people then that makes part 107.39 basically impossible to follow.

 

[mobilehomer]

Just for a little clarity.
From the FAA site -
Operations Over Human Beings: What does "over" mean?

The term "over" refers to the flight of the small unmanned aircraft directly over any part of a person. For example, a small UAS that hovers directly over a person's head, shoulders, or extended arms or legs would be an operation over people. Similarly, if a person is lying down, for example at a beach, an operation over that person's torso or toes would also constitute an operation over people. A flight where a small UAS flies over any part of any person, regardless of how long the flight is over the person, would be considered an operation over people.

and -

Operations Over People General Overview

www.faa.gov

 

[Captain J Case]

I'm a fairly new recreational pilot flying a Mavic Air 2. I recently shot a video moving over a beach with scattered people below. It does not pause and hover there, it just flies over the beach at about 100' and out over the water. I've seen quite a few similar videos posted on youtube, but I'm hesitant to upload it because I'm unsure of the rule about flying over people. Any advice?

I bet your glad you asked..!!

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

If you really can’t traverse over people then that makes part 107.39 basically impossible to follow.

I'd really like to be wrong, but that's my understanding. Until the FAA certifies a part 2 or 3 device, or it gets easier to configure a sub 249g drone with guards to prevent laceration from props, flight over people is still basically prohibited. But with the guidance @mobilehomer cited here you can, outside of crowds, do an awful lot without flying over people. Looking forward to the experts weighing in.

 

[BigAl07]

@BigAl07 or @Vic Moss whats your understanding of §107.39? I’ve heard the part you can traverse over people if going from A to B but now that I’m reading the whole thing in context it seems like that only applies if operating under categories 1, 2, or 3. Or is there some other FAA guidance on this issue? If you really can’t traverse over people then that makes part 107.39 basically impossible to follow.

Whew what a thread to try and follow...

First of all, the OP stated "Recreational" in his question yet first thing we see are several links/quotes for Part 107 Regulations. That's like quoting the driving rules for someone in England who is driving in the USA. While there might be some "similarity" you have to use the rules for the situation and ONLY those rules.

As a Recreational Operator the FAA gives a LOT of leeway... You either follow the FAA ~44809 rules (which do NOT forbid flights over people) or if you are following a CBO rule set you follow whatever it says. You can NOT mix and match to fit your own needs/wants. So as of right now, a Recreational Flyer can fly "Over People" as long as it's done in a safe manner. What does this mean? If there is an incident you were not in compliant and subject to the FAA's full power and attention.

Part 107 is another thing.... if you want to fly over people you must be flying FULLY under one of the noted Categories.... If any aspect of your flight does not FULLY meet that Category you can't fly "Over People". When it says Over People it means over even the smallest part of a person.

Of course it's VERY difficult to fly in any public setting and NEVER fly over a single person but if you're serious about LEGAL flying you can do it you just can't fly anywhere and everywhere you want. Sometimes we stay grounded because it just can't be done. Sometimes we take the risk anyway and hope for the best. Once again it comes down to if there is an incident and someone is struck you were NOT in compliance with Part 107.

I hope this helps as it was a quick reply without spending too much time going too deep into the Abyss.