Flying with line of sight

[Strafe1]

I'm just reading what's written in the actual law. Section 336 is about who is exempt from FAA regulation: hobbyists flying model aircraft - it then goes on to define what they mean by that. It's clear as crystal. It's not what people want to hear, but it couldn't be more black/white.

Again, it just says that the FAA cannot make any new laws for model aircraft. There is no exemption here.

 

[AyeYo]

It doesn't say that. In black and white. Where does it say your exempt?

Right here:

the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if—

That's literally saying, the FAA can't regulate you IF you follow all these stipulations that follow.

AyeYo, instead of trying to restate what you think Public Law 112-95, Section 336 means, it would be easiest just to refer to the summary here. It's an accurate summary of Public Law 112-95, Section 336. Unless someone has a waiver in hand, all hobbyists must follow everything in that table if they wish to operate under US law.

Yup. That's exactly what I just said. And what happens when they don't follow any one item listed in Section 336? They're no longer classified as a hobbyist and fall under Part 107. Just like I said.

 

[AyeYo]

Again, it just says that the FAA cannot make any new laws for model aircraft. There is no exemption here.

That's just because you aren't reading it.

Look, right here in the Part 107 summary already quoted:

Part 107 does not apply to model aircraft that satisfy all of the criteria specified in section 336 of Public Law 112-95. • The rule codifies the FAA’s enforcement authority in part 101 by prohibiting model aircraft operators from endangering the safety of the NAS

Section 336 is definitions to exempt hobbyists with model aircraft from Part 107. If you don't follow Section 336, you fall under Part 107. This couldn't be any simpler.

 

[Wombat55]

That's not it at all. If the drone is out of your line of sight, then you have no idea what manned aircraft might be approaching it.

Oh, come on. Once again I find your logic makes no sense. Let's put aside the fact that there shouldn't be any aircraft at all flying less than 400 feet above the ground outside the immediate region of an airport or heliport. If a low-flying aircraft were rapidly approaching your drone AND flying in the direct line of sight between you and your drone then, yes, in that case you might have a chance of spotting the aircraft before it gets to your drone (assuming that you're not paying close attention to your drone as you're supposed to be doing). But if the aircraft is approaching from any other direction such as from behind you then you would have no chance of spotting the aircraft beforehand.

Please don't try to justify rules by inventing explanations that make no sense.

 

[cheertest]

Exactly correct.

I agree, it states "corrective lense" that could be an interpretation to the lense on the mavic camera

 

[AyeYo]

Oh, come on. Once again I find your logic makes no sense. Let's put aside the fact that there shouldn't be any aircraft at all flying less than 400 feet above the ground outside the immediate region of an airport or heliport. If a low-flying aircraft were rapidly approaching your drone AND flying in the direct line of sight between you and your drone then, yes, in that case you might have a chance of spotting the aircraft before it gets to your drone (assuming that you're not paying close attention to your drone as you're supposed to be doing). But if the aircraft is approaching from any other direction such as from behind you then you would have no chance of spotting the aircraft beforehand.

Please don't try to justify rules by inventing explanations that make no sense.

Aircraft might not fly under 400ft where YOU are, but I encounter low flying aircraft quite often, as well as ultralights and paragliders. You might be able to SEE an aircraft headed in the direction of your drone, but if you can't actually see your drone, you have no idea how to move to avoid it.

 

[Strafe1]

I didn't say anyone was exempt from section 336. Section 336 doesn't contain any regulations. It's a clarification of who is excluded from FAA regulations as a hobbyist operating a "model aircraft".

Sec. 336 is mostly regulations for hobby fliers. The FAA posting of GETTING STARTED uses the Public Law as it's legal basis for stating the regulations, as indicated in the bottom row of the posting. The FAA cannot make new laws regarding model aircraft as defined in Public Law. But they use what the Congress has given them, which is Sec. 336. Also, the FAA is tasked with enforcing the existing laws.

 

[AyeYo]

View attachment 8968

Sec. 336 is mostly regulations for hobby fliers. The FAA posting of GETTING STARTED uses the Public Law as it's legal basis for stating the regulations, as indicated in the bottom row of the posting. The FAA cannot make new laws regarding model aircraft as defined in Public Law. But they use what the Congress has given them, which is Sec. 336. Also, the FAA is tasked with enforcing the existing laws.

Which regulations are listed in section 336? Maybe you can point them out as I don't see any. What happens if you don't follow them?

 

[Jaysjob]

It most definitely is.

Can I get the 3 digit code off the back please?

 

[AyeYo]

Again, if you actually read 336 it is defining what a hobby and model aircraft is. There's no penalty for not following it, as they aren't regulations, they're stipulations. Follow them if you don't want to run afoul of Part 107 - that's what 336 is. Flying within visual line of site is stated right in there, flat out. Following community guidelines also is. You do all that stuff and you're a hobbyist. You don't and you're under Part 107. Really really simple stuff if you just read what's written in very plain English.

 

[Strafe1]

Again, if you actually read 336 it is defining what a hobby and model aircraft is. There's no penalty for not following it, as they aren't regulations, they're stipulations. Follow them if you don't want to run afoul of Part 107 - that's what 336 is. Flying within visual line of site is stated right in there, flat out. Following community guidelines also is. You do all that stuff and you're a hobbyist. You don't and you're under Part 107. Really really simple stuff if you just read what's written in very plain English.

Not simple. The FAA had to write a special response to the Congressional ruling just because it wasn't clear to everyone. This discussion should also show you that it is not plain and simple.
Approaching this backwards, in your opinion, what are the legal rules a hobbyist must follow?

 

[MinneapolisFlyGuy]

Why not just look at the triangle and see what direction you're facing.

That's what I said originally, but we started discussing a way to do it of your DJI Go shuts off as well when the Mavic is far away, as a speck.

 

[AyeYo]

Not simple. The FAA had to write a special response to the Congressional ruling just because it wasn't clear to everyone. This discussion should also show you that it is not plain and simple.
Approaching this backwards, in your opinion, what are the legal rules a hobbyist must follow?

Everything listed in 336, otherwise you aren't a hobbyist anymore.

Where it can and has gotten foggy is the "community guidelines" item.

For most RC pilots that's the AMA rules or local club airfield rules. Drones kind of complicated that because now you have people flying all over and in places no one would have flown before. That's why the FAA came up with its own set of guidelines (the ones on the registration page) that can be followed in lieu of AMA or other rules (this is what I was referring to earlier). This set of FAA guidelines has caused the "I'm not bothering anyone I'll do what I want" drone crowd to think that all FAA hobbyist RULES are optional. There's two problems with that...

#1. If you aren't following every stipulation of Section 336 you aren't a hobbyist and therefore fall under the full regulation of the FAA.

#2. Since following a set of community guidelines is part of 336, if you aren't following the FAA guidelines and just doing as you please, you've again fallen outside of 336 and are now regulated like any other non-exempt operator (i.e. Parr 107).

But again, people will read what they want to read and see what they want to see. So fly far and fly high while I pray for the day that commercial operations are thoroughly and clearly segregated from consumer use, so that when one of these "I'm not bothering anyone" morons brings down a plane the subsequent draconian regulations won't kill my business.

 

[Strafe1]

Everything listed in 336, otherwise you aren't a hobbyist anymore.

Where it can and has gotten foggy is the "community guidelines" item.

For most RC pilots that's the AMA rules or local club airfield rules. Drones kind of complicated that because now you have people flying all over and in places no one would have flown before. That's why the FAA came up with its own set of guidelines (the ones on the registration page) that can be followed in lieu of AMA or other rules (this is what I was referring to earlier). This set of FAA guidelines has caused the "I'm not bothering anyone I'll do what I want" drone crowd to think that all FAA hobbyist RULES are optional. There's two problems with that...

#1. If you aren't following every stipulation of Section 336 you aren't a hobbyist and therefore fall under the full regulation of the FAA.

#2. Since following a set of community guidelines is part of 336, if you aren't following the FAA guidelines and just doing as you please, you've again fallen outside of 336 and are now regulated like any other non-exempt operator (i.e. Parr 107).

But again, people will read what they want to read and see what they want to see. So fly far and fly high while I pray for the day that commercial operations are thoroughly and clearly segregated from consumer use, so that when one of these "I'm not bothering anyone" morons brings down a plane the subsequent draconian regulations won't kill my business.

This is where that train of thought goes in a wrong direction I think. The FAA defines a hobbyist or recreational flier by use of common dictionary definitions, as stated in their policies. The only time you are not a hobbyist, is if you fly for purposes other than for fun or recreation. That does not mean that if you fly outside the conditions of 336, you are now subject to Part 107. That is a stretch, and no where does it say that you are suddenly subject to Part 107 regulation. You are subject to Part 107 if you fly for any reason other than fun or recreation. So it is true that you are a hobby flier or you are not. But it is not true that if you don't follow the fly for fun rules, that you are no longer a hobby flier. Those are two different conclusions all together. Your status as a hobby flier is not dictated by the way you fly, but rather why you fly. The FAA has made it clear in their position paper that if a hobby flier endangers the NAS or injuries people or property on the ground, it is in their right to pursue you and levy fines if needed.

 

[AyeYo]

That's where your lack of reading comprehension is demonstrated. Read the opening paragraph of 336. It literally says, the FAA will not regulate model aircraft for hobby use IF you follow all thsee rules. If you don't follow those rules, you're outside 336. If you're outside of 336, Part 107 applies by default, and I already quoted the relevant section of the summary. Use whatever semantics make you happy. The net result is the same.

 

[SRJ_Mavic_PRO]

And now.... the end is near.... time to hit the "Unfollow"

 

[Strafe1]

Again, if you actually read 336 it is defining what a hobby and model aircraft is. There's no penalty for not following it, as they aren't regulations, they're stipulations. Follow them if you don't want to run afoul of Part 107 - that's what 336 is. Flying within visual line of site is stated right in there, flat out. Following community guidelines also is. You do all that stuff and you're a hobbyist. You don't and you're under Part 107. Really really simple stuff if you just read what's written in very plain English.

I like what you've said in these first two sentences. If you, as a hobbyist don't follow them, Part 107 does not kick in. From the FAA paper:

 

[Strafe1]

And now.... the end is near.... time to hit the "Unfollow"

I think it's a good back and forth discussion!

 

[Strafe1]

And now.... the end is near.... time to hit the "Unfollow"

I would probably unfollow too!

 

[Strafe1]

That's where your lack of reading comprehension is demonstrated. Read the opening paragraph of 336. It literally says, the FAA will not regulate model aircraft for hobby use IF you follow all thsee rules. If you don't follow those rules, you're outside 336. If you're outside of 336, Part 107 applies by default, and I already quoted the relevant section of the summary. Use whatever semantics make you happy. The net result is the same.

Don't get personal with lack of reading comprehension. You are losing credibility now,