Illegal to fly over a "federal railroad" ???

[Vic Moss]

Did you watch the video I posted from Russ at 51 drones? That was a regular cop that confronted him. Wonder what would have happened if Russ did not be as nice as he was.

I've seen Russ' video. There is definitely a time to be cool and collected, but if push comes to shove, I will let them know they don't have the authority to do anything if I'm not a RR property. And yes, I'll push it as far as I need to. Politely as possible of course.

 

[wardtom084]

Personally he lost his case with me when he said he could shoot down the drone. Uncalled for and over the top.

 

[Vic Moss]

Personally he lost his case with me when he said he could shoot down the drone. Uncalled for and over the top.

Technically that is also a violation of 18 USC 32. A simple threat with intent is enough to get you charged.

 

[Vic Moss]

Yesterday, a western railroad employee ordered me to land immediately. He claimed that I violated federal law by flying over a "federal railroad". No national parks, airports, crowds or secure areas were involved. I complied immediately.
Once I landed my drone, I asked the employee for clarification. He claimed that he had full authority to shoot down the drone if I ever violated this order under his watch, and to arrest me for non-compliance. No discussion, objections or comments were permitted. Since I already had my photograph, and no supporting book of drone regulations, I left the area.
Supporting details: I flew approx. 100 feet above his railroad tracks for the purpose of photographing a well-known Amtrak station out West. No trains were in the area, nor were there any passengers in the area.
I am considering a making a complaint phone call to the railroad, but I request this community's thoughts. Thank you for your responses.

Also, please reach out to me. [email protected]. I'd love to take up your cause and make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[Jagerbomb52]

This whole post reminded me of this video I watched a few years ago. You have to wonder if you should start to follow the money.

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[dirkclod]

Guys let me straighten something out. I’ve cleaned the last few post as I went off and apologize. Now carry one but please try
and get back on track of the original thread.
Thank you.

 

[Chip]

I've seen Russ' video. There is definitely a time to be cool and collected, but if push comes to shove, I will let them know they don't have the authority to do anything if I'm not a RR property. And yes, I'll push it as far as I need to. Politely as possible of course.

diction and authority
Some railroad police officers are certified law enforcement officers and may carry full police and arrest powers. The appointment, commissioning, and regulation of railroad police under Section 1704 of the U.S. Crime Control Act of 1990, provides that: "A railroad police officer who is certified or commissioned as a police officer under the laws of any one state shall, in accordance with the regulations issued by the U.S. Secretary of Transportation, be authorized to enforce the laws of any other state in which the rail carrier owns property."

It is important to note that Section 1704 also states that this police authority is to "the extent of the authority of a police officer certified or commissioned under the laws of that jurisdiction". While railroad police officers may have general peace officer authority in some states such as California, they are limited to the railroad's property in other states.

The status of railroad police officers varies by state, in that they are commissioned by the governor of the state in which they reside and/or work in and they may carry both state level arrest powers and some interstate arrest powers as allowed by 49 USC 28101. Although railroad police primarily enforce laws on or near the railroad right-of-way, their police officers can enforce other laws and make arrests off of railroad property depending on the state in which they are working.

Depending upon the state or jurisdiction, railroad police officers may be considered certified police officers, deputized peace officers, or company special agents. In Virginia, for example, any railroad may file an application with the circuit court of any county where it operates to allow the president of the railroad to appoint members of its own police force.

Some of the crimes railroad police investigate include trespassing on the right-of-way of a railroad, assaults against passengers, terrorism threats targeting the railroad, arson, tagging of graffiti on railroad rolling stock or buildings, signal vandalism, pickpocketing, ticket fraud, robbery, and theft of personal belongings, baggage, or freight. Other incidents railroad police investigate include derailments, train/vehicle collisions, vehicle accidents on the right of way, and hazardous materials releases.

I was not aware of the railroad police and their power so this was very good to know. We have some great rail yards here and I love trains but I have never explored by drone. This thread will make me far more cautious if I ever do go down there. If confronted, I could see asking what law are you referring to that says I can’t fly here? But if officer was angry and confrontational like OP said he was, I would also pack up and go without arguing. The reason being the situation could rapidly escalate and morph into resisting arrest, obstructing/interfering, or even assault. I could not see that happening with the courteous officer on the drone video. That is the kind of officer I have also encountered. But the OP is describing an angry, aggressive, person and I would want no part of that, it’s too risky for me as hobby flyer and not worth it. I am fine with others who are very informed on the law making their own calculation and standing on principle if they choose.

 

[RedBaron2]

Railroad cops have NO authority outside of railroad property. As for the "federal" aspect of flying over the track, I'm prone to think he was full of crap and just being a bully. He obviously had no clue about FAA rules and laws. You did the right thing by not escalating it, but next time, get the person's name, badge number, and supervisor, and then contact the FAA and the Railroad main office to discuss the situation. And as someone else said, always try to record any encounter on your phone for future reference and protection. There are actually apps where the video is sent to the cloud immediately so even if someone tries to take your phone or damage it the video will be safe. But, I'll bet money that he was lying. Were you on the tracks or side road when he approached you?
BTW, you CAN fly over national parks, for the most part, you just can't take off or land in them.

I never stood on railroad property, nor did I launch/land on railroad property. Further, the rail employee was not on rail property either (as evidenced by a small yellow dot in my photo). His complaint was that he would not tolerate the violation of flying over the tracks on his "watch".

Did you watch the video I posted from Russ at 51 drones? That was a regular cop that confronted him. Wonder what would have happened if Russ did not be as nice as he was.

Regular police, such as County and City, are peace officers, not judge, jury and hangmen. Precautionary warnings are almost always questioning actions rather than threatening. The subject rail employee did not attend any recent "polite manners training" recently.
It is time to post the subject photo and surroundings. Note the bright yellow jacket (really small with no details) in the right part of the screen. He was standing next to the black sport vehicle that he drove.

 

[Jagerbomb52]

Just to be clear I never said the RR employee was right for acting the way he did with the OP of ths post. I tried to add to the conversation of what the RR police were able and not able to do with searches from google. From what I can tell they were accurate. At no time was I trying to feed the fire, only trying to offer information to a open forum. If I broke any rule or ruffled someone's feathers that was not my intention. From now on I will just crawl back into my corner and stop trying to be helpful.

 

[dirkclod]

GUYS
​

 

[mobilehomer]

These two links may prove useful. Although, state laws do not supercede the FAA.

Taking Pictures/Videos of Union Pacific Trains or Structures

Safety is of paramount importance to Union Pacific Railroad. Taking pictures or video while on Union Pacific property is dangerous, so when taking pictures or video of Union Pacific Railroad trains or structures:

www.up.com

Keeping Railroads Secure From Drones

According to the Federal Aviation Administration's most recent FAA Aerospace Forecast, more than 900,000 unmanned aircraft systems, or UAS, owners…

www.lexology.com

 

[Jagerbomb52]

I know here in Canada for at least the Go Train in the Toronto area that is run by Metrolinx. It is a Crown agency of the Government of Ontario that manages and integrates road and public transport in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, The area above GO tracks is restricted airspace and it’s illegal to fly any type of drone – commercial or consumer – over the rail lines. And they warn anyone who illegally flies over train tracks will be fined and charged. According to Metrolinx, anyone who is caught flying a drone over an active rail corridor could be fined up to $10,000 as well as potentially facing serious criminal charges, including mischief endangering life.

 

[Robert Prior]

The area above GO tracks is restricted airspace and it’s illegal to fly any type of drone – commercial or consumer – over the rail lines.

I found a blog entry where Metrolinx says that, but their link to Transport Canada makes no mention of train tracks as restricted airspace (unless a train is considered an 'advertised event').

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

What I can't find are any actual regulations, just this one blog entry.

Lorne Kinsella is the Creative Director for Metrolinx Marketing department. He says to safely and legally fly a drone over an active rail corridor: “Actually requires permissions from about a dozen regulatory and security offices.”

I would have thought that with a dozen stakeholders in the permission chain there would be more of an online footprint for those restrictions. Could be my poor search skills, of course.

Do you have link to something more official?

 

[Jagerbomb52]

I found a blog entry where Metrolinx says that, but their link to Transport Canada makes no mention of train tracks as restricted airspace (unless a train is considered an 'advertised event').

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

What I can't find are any actual regulations, just this one blog entry.



I would have thought that with a dozen stakeholders in the permission chain there would be more of an online footprint for those restrictions. Could be my poor search skills, of course.

Do you have link to something more official?

No my search took me to the same place.

 

[Vic Moss]

These two links may prove useful. Although, state laws do not supercede the FAA.

Taking Pictures/Videos of Union Pacific Trains or Structures

Safety is of paramount importance to Union Pacific Railroad. Taking pictures or video while on Union Pacific property is dangerous, so when taking pictures or video of Union Pacific Railroad trains or structures:

www.up.com

Keeping Railroads Secure From Drones

According to the Federal Aviation Administration's most recent FAA Aerospace Forecast, more than 900,000 unmanned aircraft systems, or UAS, owners…

www.lexology.com

Both of those article reinforce that fact that Railroads don't control the airspace above their properties.

And the lawyers' article needs to be updated. They reference the Texas law, and that was struck down as unconstitutional by a Federal Court. Texas may appeal that decision to SCOUTS, but it's very unlikely.

 

[Jagerbomb52]

@Robert Prior
After a few coffees and some more searching I found this info.
The London FIC was called by a drone pilot in the area. They had no knowledge of MetroLinx or CN having any restricted airspace in Ontario that would effect RPAS flights. If the NAV CAN portal / App approves the flight in controlled airspace and you have the correct permits / permission to operate on the ground you are good to go. A courtesy call or email to Metrolinx / CN to let them know of the operation might be a good idea.

 

[drhitch54]

Did you file a LAANC permit using B4UFLY app?

In many cases just showing the person the email that gives you authorization will calm their fears...

 

[Vic Moss]

Did you file a LAANC permit using B4UFLY app?

In many cases just showing the person the email that gives you authorization will calm their fears...

LAANC is only available for controlled airspace.

 

[RedBaron2]

Did you file a LAANC permit using B4UFLY app?

In many cases just showing the person the email that gives you authorization will calm their fears...

Having been there before, I believed the area was safe for flight. However, before launching, I attempted a search through B4UFLY, but I received an error message on my smartphone and thought that I did not have an internet connection. So, no area verification or LAANC approval was requested before launching. I did learn that B4UFLY and Kittyhawk is now known as "ALOFT"; so I registered with them as well.
Great suggestion from you.
In the absence of hard data (including a recorded conversation), I chose to stand down and walk away.
Thanks.

 

[drhitch54]

LAANC is only available for controlled airspace.

Yes...I was "suggesting" that it might be good evidence that "it says I'm ok to fly here"...