ND filters

[Turn11]

new camera & sensor on the M2Pro the need for ND filters will be far less than before.

Right out of the box in AUTO the difference between the MPP and the M2P is amazing.
Looking forward to experimenting with manual settings to see how to use the camera all over again.

 

[Ian in London]

And unless you're close and fast to objects its invisible! Thats the thing. The 180 degree "rule" (guideline not rule) is only really necessary in specific circumstances. Take it up to 400ft and film some gentle panning - there'll be no visible difference.

Hi Gnirt
In post #7, you mentioned that as it has an adjustable apperture, there's no real need for NDs. I@ve read the rest of your posts, and totally get what you're saying regarding filming when not close to an object moving fast, so I'm just wondering what the adjustable apperture has to do with reducing the need for NDs? Can you explain that a bit more for me please?
Cheers,
Ian

 

[Trees138]

A numerically higher aperture, f/11 for example, will have a smaller physical opening into the camera. You will get less light than a numerically smaller aperture, f/4 or f/2.8, which is a physically larger opening into the camera.

Less light will allow you to use a longer exposure time, which will blur the motion and smooth the look of it.

All the NDs were for was restricting the amount of light that could hit the sensor so you weren't over exposing. This was more of an issue with the f/2.4 fixed aperture of the MP/MPP because with that bigger aperture they were ALWAYS letting in more light than the M2P ever will, all other things being equal. For the original camera it would have been pretty much a necessity to use ND's to achieve smooth motion on a sunny day, you could only reduce the ISO so far, after that you'd be making the shutter speed shorten to compensate, giving moving subjects sharper images, which when played back tends to look choppy.

 

[gnirtS]

Hi Gnirt
In post #7, you mentioned that as it has an adjustable apperture, there's no real need for NDs. I@ve read the rest of your posts, and totally get what you're saying regarding filming when not close to an object moving fast, so I'm just wondering what the adjustable apperture has to do with reducing the need for NDs? Can you explain that a bit more for me please?
Cheers,
Ian

NDs only purpose is to block light to allow that slow shutter speed. Needed on drones with a fixed aperture as you dont have any other means of dropping light levels.
With an adjustable aperture (in the M2 case f/2.8 to f/11) it means you can narrow the aperture by up to 4 stops without needing a filter.
That effectively means you adjust *up to* effectively an ND16 ND on the camera without a filter.
It's not as simple as that as narrower than certain apertures you start to lose sharpness due to light diffraction. That maybe between f/8 and f/11 on this size sensor. Im planning on doing some sharpness tests tomorrow (if it isnt raining ) to see where it starts to drop.
But even so, f/2.8 to f/8 is still 3 stops effective blocking.

Example, say on the mavic air (f/2.8 aperture) you'd need an ND16 (4 stop) to get 1/60th second shutter. You could get that on the drone without a filter by dropping the lens from f/2.8 to f/11.


So in short, whereas the mavic needed lots of different NDs to cope with different light levels, because you can adjust with the lens alone a lot you'll need far less. A single 4 stop ND may well be all you need (allowing you to cover 7-8 or so total stops in real terms) when combined with aperture adjustments.

On big cameras aperture affects the depth of field but the M2 sensor is small enough that theres no real world DOF difference even wide open so thats not an issue.

 

[ugotd8]

Hmmm... tough decision at the moment. Skyreat 6 filters for $69 on amazon or 3 PP filters for $79. The difference is the PP polarizer filters appear to be adjustable once mounted. Plus the Skyreats say available tomorrow while not until the 22nd for PP.

 

[Ian in London]

NDs only purpose is to block light to allow that slow shutter speed. Needed on drones with a fixed aperture as you dont have any other means of dropping light levels.
With an adjustable aperture (in the M2 case f/2.8 to f/11) it means you can narrow the aperture by up to 4 stops without needing a filter.
That effectively means you adjust *up to* effectively an ND16 ND on the camera without a filter.
It's not as simple as that as narrower than certain apertures you start to lose sharpness due to light diffraction. That maybe between f/8 and f/11 on this size sensor. Im planning on doing some sharpness tests tomorrow (if it isnt raining ) to see where it starts to drop.
But even so, f/2.8 to f/8 is still 3 stops effective blocking.

Example, say on the mavic air (f/2.8 aperture) you'd need an ND16 (4 stop) to get 1/60th second shutter. You could get that on the drone without a filter by dropping the lens from f/2.8 to f/11.


So in short, whereas the mavic needed lots of different NDs to cope with different light levels, because you can adjust with the lens alone a lot you'll need far less. A single 4 stop ND may well be all you need (allowing you to cover 7-8 or so total stops in real terms) when combined with aperture adjustments.

On big cameras aperture affects the depth of field but the M2 sensor is small enough that theres no real world DOF difference even wide open so thats not an issue.

Perfect. Really appreciate the detailed answer.
I'll be testing and playing with the Skyreats NDs next week, so this is really info.
Cheers again
Ian

 

[hookalakupua]

Polar Pro will be releasing theirs on or around the 22nd of this month.

 

[gnirtS]

Actually one really useful mode for video thats new people aren't really talking about is the shutter priority mode.

Now like a real camera it allows you to lock specific parts of the exposure triangle.

Given the M2 seems relatively well sharp over several apertures and DOF isnt going to change its now viable to film in shutter priority mode.

Keep the shutter locked at 1/60th or whatever you want and allow the drone to adjust the ISO and/or aperture on the fly to maintain the correct exposure in that mode. Very handy for scenes where the light level changes such as turning or gimbal pans.

Nobody really seems to be discussing the new camera modes on the pro - there are some very useful changes in the app.

 

[Ian in London]

Actually one really useful mode for video thats new people aren't really talking about is the shutter priority mode.

Now like a real camera it allows you to lock specific parts of the exposure triangle.

Given the M2 seems relatively well sharp over several apertures and DOF isnt going to change its now viable to film in shutter priority mode.

Keep the shutter locked at 1/60th or whatever you want and allow the drone to adjust the ISO and/or aperture on the fly to maintain the correct exposure in that mode. Very handy for scenes where the light level changes such as turning or gimbal pans.

Nobody really seems to be discussing the new camera modes on the pro - there are some very useful changes in the app.

Well, when I get the NDs, I'll be playing around with this setting and seeing how that mode affects things so this is very helpful cheers.

Ian

 

[Trees138]

The Skyreats do take a a little while to ship.

Actually one really useful mode for video thats new people aren't really talking about is the shutter priority mode.

Now like a real camera it allows you to lock specific parts of the exposure triangle.

Given the M2 seems relatively well sharp over several apertures and DOF isnt going to change its now viable to film in shutter priority mode.

Keep the shutter locked at 1/60th or whatever you want and allow the drone to adjust the ISO and/or aperture on the fly to maintain the correct exposure in that mode. Very handy for scenes where the light level changes such as turning or gimbal pans.

Nobody really seems to be discussing the new camera modes on the pro - there are some very useful changes in the app.

I was tring that mode out at my local rc club and i just plain had too much light by around 5 stops. But it should work well once I can get it dialed in.

I will have the Skyreat set of six here mid month and the PolarPro in 2P, 4, 6P, and 8 stops. So i will be covered to get good lighting even in the snow and hopefully some cool shots of water falls as well, though i doubt that 8 stop gets used much.

 

[gnirtS]

I used to fly the M1 in the tropics so huge glare and reflection. The biggest ND i needed was ND32.

So going by that if i buy 1 x 4 stop ND filter, combining that with the aperture control i should be more than OK.

Ive not yet seen a single drone stable enough for long exposure water - especially as you need 5-30 second ranges to get decent blurring.

 

[Trees138]

Then all I've done is waste my money. Which is no big deal.

 

[FiShBuRn]

pgytech filters are good?

 

[Skyreat]

pgytech filters are good?

I don't think so.

 

[microlinux]

I have a 6-pack set of the Skyreat filters coming from Amazon, interested to see how they work on the M2P.

 

[FiShBuRn]

I don't think so.

ahah yeah im sure you will say that do you have any reseller that ships your filters from EU?

 

[KiterTodd]

...The difference is the PP polarizer filters appear to be adjustable once mounted. Plus the Skyreats say available tomorrow while not until the 22nd for PP.

What? How?!?
Ahhh... just read this "Polarization indicator laser etched onto frame to easily align your polarizer".
That's cool. I guess in theory I could run a test flight, then give it a 45 degree or so turn and see which I liked better given current reflected light.

I was happy with my ND16-PL PolarPro I had for the Mavic, so I pre-ordered the same for the M2Z.
Good point (above) though, that we'll need less light filtering with the adjustable aperture on the M2Z. Maybe I should have ordered the ND4 or ND8 PL...

 

[Trees138]

For what it's worth, I do agree with gnirtS in 99% of use cases. I am often playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion, although I am absolutely going to try the higher values based on my results so far, and even in the scenarios I'm posing, bringing up ISO to 200-800 would probably be much easier and much more likely to give me a solid result. That, however does not mean I'm not going to try it. That is all I'm advocating for. If you were only going to get one set of filters, you'd be much better served to go for less stops. As gnirtS has said numerous times, you can likely get the results you need with a single ND for extreme bright days. This is nothing like the fixed large aperture of the previous mavic cameras.

That said, I do want to ask @gnirtS about why he keeps saying that DOF does not matter on a sensor this size. If you're shooting from far away, where your entire composition is effectively at infinity, or near it, no it won't matter much. But I have seen a lot of drone content that could be at a distance to be... very much affected by DOF. I'm not trying to say that what they are saying is incorrect, I'm assuming there are assumptions being made there that fit that statement to being valid far more often than not. But I do think it's worth expanding on for the sake of educating the uninitiated.

Here's my quick counter argument:
f/2.8

f/11


I have also seen people take long exposures with the Original Mavic Pro and the Air to some degree of success, I personally, much as gnirtS has said, have yet to get a good stable photo at the >1sec exposure times that would really lend themselves to excessive ND filters to get milky smooth waterfalls, but that's very limited testing in a pretty confined environment (my back yard, which really freaks the drone out in tripod mode). Again, I want to clarify, I'm not insisting that what I'm doing is even reasonable, so please take it as an exercise and don't use it as a justification to buy even more ND filters, especially not at this time.

Lastly gnirtS, I hope I'm not annoying you too much with all this discussion, I'm really not trying to drive you nuts, I'm whittling away at my own ignorance more than anything. Thank you for lending your expertise.

 

[gnirtS]

That said, I do want to ask @gnirtS about why he keeps saying that DOF does not matter on a sensor this size. If you're shooting from far away, where your entire composition is effectively at infinity, or near it, no it won't matter much.

If you do the maths that distance is roughly 3.5m even at wide open f/2.8.
I'd wager most people are filming objects at least that distance away.

A Flexible Depth of Field Calculator for example. Choose 1" sensor. Focal length of the M2Pro is 10.26mm.

Once you hit 3.3m you're at infinity focus even at f/2.8.

So yep, your photos will show a DOF change but they're inside the 3.3m distance. Real world a drone is pretty much always going to be 3m from a subject.
If you go down to f/11 the distance is 90cm .

Remember DOF depends on sensor size, focal length,aperture *and subject distance*

Lastly gnirtS, I hope I'm not annoying you too much with all this discussion, I'm really not trying to drive you nuts, I'm whittling away at my own ignorance more than anything. Thank you for lending your expertise.

Not annoying at all, nothing wrong with useful factual discussion![/QUOTE]

 

[BIGLUG24]

Skyreat will be available on amazon.com in 1 week, Anyone want to test it ,please message me .

Skyreat filtes will be active on amazon in 1 week.Both Mavic 2 Zoom & Pro

I would like to try them