Newbie question on E series airspace

[Milo187]

It's my understanding that it's ok to fly in the Class-E surface extensions without authorization, just not in the primary circle (the part that is "designated for an airport").

You're dead wrong ... you won't get an authorization to fly in a Class E surface extension UNLESS you submit and get approval for authorization via the FAA DroneZone site which will take about 8 weeks to get a reply which will likely be denied.
LAANC won't give you an instant approval in those cases either.

 

[sdold]

You're dead wrong ... you won't get an authorization to fly in a Class E surface extension UNLESS you submit and get approval for authorization via the FAA DroneZone site which will take about 8 weeks to get a reply which will likely be denied.
LAANC won't give you an instant approval in those cases either.

I'm pretty sure it's that way at least under part 107. Are you thinking it's not that way under the recreational rules? That could be true.

 

[jeplane]

It's my understanding that it's ok to fly in the Class-E surface extensions without authorization, just not in the primary circle (the part that is "designated for an airport").

Class E, with extension or not, is class E, and as such is not legal for us to fly into, for fellow drones pilots.
As an example, see the class E extension on the class D of Key west, in the enclosed pic....

 

[sdold]

But the extensions aren't E2 ("designated for an airport"). They're E4 (except for 20 or so airports that the FAA has listed somewhere, where the E4 extensions become E2 at night when the tower closes). Are you saying it's different under the new AC? In it, 7.1.5 is worded only to include E2.

 

[jeplane]

- Pilots do not call class E with numbers. So I am not familiar with them.

- Class E, either starts at the SFC-700'-1200'-12,500'. That's it, and in a way, it's quite simple.

- You are only concerned with the one starting at the SFC, as a drone pilot. The other altitudes do not apply to you.

- To understand the logic behind this airspace, and the reason why all of a sudden, a manned aircraft must increase the visibility requirements in this type of airspace, I invite you to read the following page, made for student pilots, trying to decipher the airspace:

Class E Airspace, Explained

Class E is the most common type of airspace in the United States, but it's often the least understood.

www.boldmethod.com

 

[Milo187]

Doesn’t matter. 107 or rec. Any surface designation is an NFZ.

 

[sdold]

I'm not sure where you guys are getting that. The only type of Class-E designated as surface area for an airport is E2. What about E3? That extends out of a Class C, it's not an extension to Class E at all.

 

[Milo187]

Jeplane is correct.

 

[Milo187]

What’s the street address, city and state? Pretty easy to figure out with that info but if you know how to read a sectional chart any dashed magenta location is a No Fly Zone for drones starting from the surface.
Send us the address,

 

[sdold]

This page seems to support the idea that authorization isn't required in the extensions. If anyone has other official info that counters this, I'd like to have it:

Misinformation and Understanding Class E Airspace | UAV Expert News

Misinformation and Understanding Class E Airspace: What you need to know about operating your drone in class E airspace.

www.uavexpertnews.com

Specifically, this document from the FAA:

http://www.uavexpertnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Gardner.png

Also, during a recent FAA webinar on airspace, I asked if authorization was required in Class-E surface extensions, and the answer was "no." I'm trying to find the transcript of that webinar, it doesn't seem to be online yet, or they omitted a lot of questions that I remember.

But bottom line is it would be very good not to have to obtain permission in the extensions. Again, if there is documented info to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Jeplane, I've been a CFI for about 30 years and never knew about the different E-designations either, until I learned about them on this forum.

 

[Milo187]

Your own “Misinformation”link even states that “Class E surface areas require Authorizations under Part 107” so I don’t know how much more clear that can be.
How about you provide the coordinates or address so we can look it up and get the real answer not interpretations!

 

[kadras]

This page seems to support the idea that authorization isn't required in the extensions. If anyone has other official info that counters this, I'd like to have it:

Misinformation and Understanding Class E Airspace | UAV Expert News

Misinformation and Understanding Class E Airspace: What you need to know about operating your drone in class E airspace.

www.uavexpertnews.com

Specifically, this document from the FAA:

http://www.uavexpertnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Gardner.png

Also, during a recent FAA webinar on airspace, I asked if authorization was required in Class-E surface extensions, and the answer was "no." I'm trying to find the transcript of that webinar, it doesn't seem to be online yet, or they omitted a lot of questions that I remember.

But bottom line is it would be very good not to have to obtain permission in the extensions. Again, if there is documented info to the contrary, I'm all ears.

Jeplane, I've been a CFI for about 30 years and never knew about the different E-designations either, until I learned about them on this forum.

What may have sparked all the discussion about E-designations is that a couple of the online courses discuss them, the legend for the FAA UAS Facilities Map lists them and the FAA document on LAANC states that "Separately from LAANC, the FAA has determined that the only subtype of Class E that applies to UAS authorizations is Class E2." The Airman Information Manual (AIM) Chapter 3 talks about the different types of airspace and lists six types of Class E, but the paragraph numbers don't match the apparent usage.
Here's the map legend and only E2 is shown by default.

 

[sdold]

I'd like to get to the bottom of this, and I don't mind being proven wrong. Well, I mind a little because it means more areas I need to get authorization in. I'll email Scott Gardner and ask him about this, I'll post his response here.

 

[tomc5179]

I'd like to get to the bottom of this, and I don't mind being proven wrong. Well, I mind a little because it means more areas I need to get authorization in. I'll email Scott Gardner and ask him about this, I'll post his response here.

I don't know who Scott Gardner is, but I'm loving the discussion. Makes sense to me that the extensions would be treated as from the surface from what examples have been shown to me. That's how I'm going to follow it, but I'm also eager to see the response you get. I never expected to learn so much when I posted the other day

 

[Milo187]

The E3 area next to my Class C airport is Class E at 700’ AGL shown as shaded magenta. Below that is Class G and we can fly

 

[Milo187]

The difference is the airspace it’s attached to and how it’s depicted (classified) on the sectionals. As we’ve said a dashed magenta area is Class E to the surface and prohibits flying in that area without a difficult to get authorization. Class E with wide magenta area is G at the surface and E above 700 AGL which we can fly in without authorization since we’re capped at 400 unless inspecting a tall building in that area. Now if we had to fly 700 or more an authorization would be needed since we would then be in E airspace.
Fun topic for sure and I’ve seen this type scenario on the 107 test

 

[sdold]

it would make a lot more sense if all surface E required authorization, since extensions exist for the same reason as the core circle. Scott retired last month so I asked his replacement the same question, and also submitted it to the FAA. I'll post any response I receive here.

Now if we had to fly 700 or more an authorization would be needed since we would then be in E airspace.t

I don't think an authorization is required here since the Class E in question isn't "Designated for the surface of an airport." I think it's why they qualify Class-E with the "...surface..." bit. I run into this sometimes inspecting antennas. I said the same thing once and SAR104 corrected me.

 

[kadras]

it would make a lot more sense if all surface E required authorization, since extensions exist for the same reason as the core circle. Scott retired last month so I asked his replacement the same question, and also submitted it to the FAA. I'll post any response I receive here.

I don't think an authorization is required here since the Class E in question isn't "Designated for the surface of an airport." I think it's why they qualify Class-E with the "...surface..." bit. I run into this sometimes inspecting antennas. I said the same thing once and SAR104 corrected me.

This is a link to a two-minute FAA video on Class E airspace for sUAS pilots. FAA TV: Class E Airspace
It clarifies the issues about extensions. Look at the circular dashed magenta line around the airport (indicating surface Class E). If that circle is continuous, then the extensions do not require authorization. If the circle is not continuous, but connects to the extensions, then they also require authorization.

 

[sdold]

Thanks to the poster that posted the video:

FAA TV: Class E Airspace

www.faa.gov

It clarifies it pretty well. Looks like some extensions require authorization, and some don't, depending on that dotted line separation. I'm guessing the contiguous areas are E2 and the separated sections are E4?

Edit: After doing some more reading, here's how I think it works:
1. There is no requirement that Surface Class-E designated for an airport (E2) be round. Sometimes they are other shapes or have rectangular parts that stick out to protect IFR arrivals.
2. What the FAA calls "extensions" are rectangular add-ons to C, D or E (E2), separated by a dotted line, and not part of C, D or E2 but are E4 or E3 instead.
3. What the FAA calls "extensions" don't require authorization, but the the ones that are part of the E2 (not separated by a dotted line) do.

Does that sound plausible? It would explain all of this and make sense operationally at the same time.

 

[tomc5179]

Thanks to the poster that posted the video:

FAA TV: Class E Airspace

www.faa.gov

It clarifies it pretty well. Looks like some extensions require authorization, and some don't, depending on that dotted line separation. I'm guessing the contiguous areas are E2 and the separated sections are E4?

WOW! My mind is blown now - Boy, it pays to ask questions! This stuff can get complicated. I understand it now from the video but what I can't figure out now is why they DON'T require authorization when it is adjacent but not part of the central part. Ah well, I guess that's the government for you. I'm a retired building contractor and am well aware some of what the government does really doesn't make sense.