No Drones Allowed in National Parks

[DonLandis]

I'm new to drone ownership and have yet to fly outside my back yard. I'm not new to TV production but now retired and shoot just for fun. No more deadlines- Yeah! I have done a number of amateur videos on National Parks, specializing in 3D. I don't sell any of them. All amateur for personal use.

A number of years ago I was working on shooting documentaries on the underwater caves in Florida called Video Cave Maps. Most of these cave entrances I was working on were privately owned. But during one project taking me about 6 months to shoot, the State bought the land and began to regulate it. I received a cease order after about 3/4 done with the project. The state was pretty good and liked my work so I had to pay for a Permit to finish up which wasn't much money, but also they wanted me to carry a $5 million liability insurance policy payable to the state and submit a number of copies of the completed projects of all my work to the state archives. The insurance police wasn't cheap but I did it and finished up. The insurance requirement wasn't new as they require this of all commercial productions, the amount depends on the size of the operation. I was a one man show for 2 months and it was $5M.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility of liability insurance yet here but this also may be a big cost disincentive for amateurs to fly in the parks. However, on a simple basis, I like the idea of a Drone permit fee with allowed locations for landing and take-off. Other places do that for specific access of hobbies. Maybe add bike riding permits, off path hiking trail permits too. Don't they have overnight camping permits with camp fire regulations? Lots of options but hard line ban seems overkill.

 

[newnan3]

Ha theres a snowball's chance in heck of the regs regarding drones being relaxed anytime soon. The word "drone" incites anger, thoughts of privacy infringement and negativity in a nano second.

If we want any sort of chance at flying in a national park we need lobbying groups paid with big money...

 

[geigy]

I wonder if the Yellowstone folks would be open to the idea of using drones to remove crashed drones where they are an eyesore. Just a thought. A way for some of us drone owners to help out and improve our image with the parks.

 

[Someone Else]

As someone that spends a lot of time in state and national parks I really have no issue with the ban in national parks. Maybe if they had very specific times on specific days I could see it but as annoying and obnoxious as people are with their selfie sticks I can't imagine if drones were legal. There are enough people that don't read the signs and follow the rules already.

After my trip to Yellowstone and the Tetons last year and all the stupidity and discourteous behavior I saw I'm starting to believe we should have a permit process just to enter a national park.

 

[tcope]

However, on a simple basis, I like the idea of a Drone permit fee with allowed locations for landing and take-off. Other places do that for specific access of hobbies. Maybe add bike riding permits, off path hiking trail permits too. Don't they have overnight camping permits with camp fire regulations? Lots of options but hard line ban seems overkill.

The problem with that... even now when there is a complete ban, many people are still flying right around people in highly public areas. So why would lax restrictions be any more effective? We even have many people in this very forum who are of the opinion that flying in Us National Parks is fine as long as you are not physically hurting someone. You really think these people are going to follow lesser restrictions? Rather than seeing themselves as part of the problem, they choose to blame those that point out these issues.

 

[geigy]

Right now we have a situation where the people flying drones are either are unaware of the rules (inexperienced flyers mostly), or know about the rules but break them anyway (insert adjective here). The result is a sort of mayhem where the ones flying are poor representatives of the average drone flyer. If we had a permit process, and the technology in place to detect unauthorized drones (a bar coded sticker, visible from the ground) that would generate revenue that could be the start of a good relationship between droners and the national parks.

Perhaps shorter term one day a month could be set aside for drone flying. Volunteers could remove drone "litter", perhaps using drones to do so. The rest of the month could be drone free, as it is now.

Just some thoughts

 

[HiVac]

I agree. I think this is why DJI wants to broadcast our info electronically. So the "drone police" can have a receiver and know who is flying. I also read this electronic notification system can be used to create a "all electronic" (no human involvement) air traffic control system for drones....we would basically know where and when to fly...right on your device....

 

[DSGDSG]

We even have many people in this very forum who are of the opinion that flying in Us National Parks is fine as long as you are not physically hurting someone. You really think these people are going to follow lesser restrictions?

I'm sorry, can you explain to me how you arrived at your conclusion? How does people having an opinion that you're ok if you're not physically hurting anyone equal they are people who won't follow rules?

 

[tcope]

I'm sorry, can you explain to me how you arrived at your conclusion? How does people having an opinion that you're ok if you're not physically hurting anyone equal they are people who won't follow rules?

Because is a regulation in US National Parks that you are not allowed to operate a drone from their property and the people I mentioned state that it's we should not be critical of those that do as long as they are not physically harming anyone. In other words, don't blame the people breaking the laws with drone use as long as they are not physically harming someone. With mentality like that (and the consistent breaking of this regulation), I don't see the NPS changing their position on the matter. It's like setting a rule for your kids and when the continue to ignore the rule, you just make the rule more and more liberal. Don't ride your bike out of the yard. They do so. Okay, don't ride your bike past the block. They do so. Okay, don't ride your bike further then 2 miles away. Things don't work like that. If anything, when rules are not followed... the rules become more strict.

 

[DSGDSG]

Because is a regulation in US National Parks that you are not allowed to operate a drone from their property and the people I mentioned state that it's we should not be critical of those that do as long as they are not physically harming anyone. In other words, don't blame the people breaking the laws with drone use as long as they are not physically harming someone. With mentality like that (and the consistent breaking of this regulation), I don't see the NPS changing their position on the matter. It's like setting a rule for your kids and when the continue to ignore the rule, you just make the rule more and more liberal. Don't ride your bike out of the yard. They do so. Okay, don't ride your bike past the block. They do so. Okay, don't ride your bike further then 2 miles away. Things don't work like that. If anything, when rules are not followed... the rules become more strict.

LOL, you would have saved time if you just replied "I have no idea". You should also educate yourself on the differences between opinions and actions.

 

[tcope]

LOL, you would have saved time if you just replied "I have no idea". You should also educate yourself on the differences between opinions and actions.

I would have saved time in not attempting to educate people in answering their question. Instead I answered the questioned that you asked. Take it as you want.

 

[DSGDSG]

I would have saved time in not attempting to educate people in answering their question. Instead I answered the questioned that you asked. Take it as you want.

Well, if you think you answered it, there's nothing I can do about that. I share the opinion that there's nothing to get too wound up about if you're not hurting anyone and according to you, that means I will not follow rules. But I do, so your conclusion is wrong. I don't now expect you to acknowledge that or even understand it but I thought you might get there on your own if you had to explain your rationale. Swing and a miss! Either way, doesn't affect me any so I'm not going to worry about it further. Carry on.

 

[sesd97]

Thank you

Correct, I recently flew in Sequoia National FOREST. I even ran into a Forest Ranger who was asking me a ton of questions, but no issues, and more curiosity than anything else.

 

[DonLandis]

"Launching, landing, or operating an unmanned aircraft from or on lands and waters administered by the National Park Service within the boundaries of [insert name of park] is prohibited except as approved in writing by the superintendent."

I've seen this wording in other places before and I wonder if you take off and land while outside the boundaries of a NP, say a half mile but fly over the park, would that constitute a violation?
Do NPS police issue violation tickets to hobbyists flying near the park as well? Seems that would be outside their jurisdiction.
I've heard stories of National Park Police scouring You Tube for videos that show aerials of their parks, tracking the person down and traveling to their home to issue a ticket, even way across the country!

 

[TheWolfen]

"Launching, landing, or operating an unmanned aircraft from or on lands and waters administered by the National Park Service within the boundaries of [insert name of park] is prohibited except as approved in writing by the superintendent."

I've seen this wording in other places before and I wonder if you take off and land while outside the boundaries of a NP, say a half mile but fly over the park, would that constitute a violation?
Do NPS police issue violation tickets to hobbyists flying near the park as well? Seems that would be outside their jurisdiction.
I've heard stories of National Park Police scouring You Tube for videos that show aerials of their parks, tracking the person down and traveling to their home to issue a ticket, even way across the country!

It is legal to fly over a NP as long as you take off, operate and land it from outside the park boundary. They can only legally control what you can do on the ground, as the FAA has jurisdiction over the airspace. However, most parks are so big that flying from outside the park boundaries doesn't give you access to much. There are exceptions, of course.

 

[DonLandis]

Thanks Wolfen for the response. I have been studying the maps of one location and it seems I can do that at one location I am planning to be at later this summer. I can get within a mile of the NP border where I want to shoot. Then the actual place is about another half mile. But, I understand if I crash the whole game plan could change. Google Earth is a good planning tool.
I'm averaging 25 minutes on my batteries so it should work. Lots of concern besides legalities such as high winds. I just got done test flying and things were OK until I got above the trees at 110 ft and then I got a warning of dangerous high winds. Below the tree line it was fine.

 

[TheWolfen]

DonLandis - sounds like you will need excellent conditions to pull that one off! Quite a challenge - good luck!!

 

[mw174620]

It is legal to fly over a NP as long as you take off, operate and land it from outside the park boundary. They can only legally control what you can do on the ground, as the FAA has jurisdiction over the airspace. However, most parks are so big that flying from outside the park boundaries doesn't give you access to much. There are exceptions, of course.

How sure are you of this advice? The reason I ask is because it leaves out some very pertinent law:

• If the unmanned aircraft pursuits or harasses wildlife or creates an intentional disturbance of wildlife nesting, breeding, or other activities, the user could be cited for a violation of 36 C.F.R. § 2.2.
• If the user of the unmanned aircraft knowingly or recklessly creates a risk of public alarm or nuisance by causing noise that was unreasonable under the circumstances or by creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition, the user could be cited for disorderly conduct under 36 C.F.R. § 2.34.
• 36 C.F.R. § 2.12(a)(3) prohibits, in non-developed areas, operating a device powered by a portable motor or engine, except pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit.

 

[mw174620]

Thanks Wolfen for the response. I have been studying the maps of one location and it seems I can do that at one location I am planning to be at later this summer. I can get within a mile of the NP border where I want to shoot. Then the actual place is about another half mile. But, I understand if I crash the whole game plan could change. Google Earth is a good planning tool.
I'm averaging 25 minutes on my batteries so it should work. Lots of concern besides legalities such as high winds. I just got done test flying and things were OK until I got above the trees at 110 ft and then I got a warning of dangerous high winds. Below the tree line it was fine.

Please be aware of the following laws before you go out:

• If the unmanned aircraft pursuits or harasses wildlife or creates an intentional disturbance of wildlife nesting, breeding, or other activities, the user could be cited for a violation of 36 C.F.R. § 2.2.
• If the user of the unmanned aircraft knowingly or recklessly creates a risk of public alarm or nuisance by causing noise that was unreasonable under the circumstances or by creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition, the user could be cited for disorderly conduct under 36 C.F.R. § 2.34.
• 36 C.F.R. § 2.12(a)(3) prohibits, in non-developed areas, operating a device powered by a portable motor or engine, except pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit.

 

[apernst]

Fly anyway. Go for it. What are the chances of getting caught. Or become organized and take the fight to the government agency who prohibited it in the first place. If they allow helicopters and real planes etc. why not UAVs. Write letters to your representatives in washington.. Write the faa who is in control of the air space. We don't win cause we never tried. To bad for us oh well. I mean I'm not going to do it and have men in black suites and black helicopter and SUVs haul me away. I guess though if you don't stand up and fight a little you get what you deserve.

This is so weird. Writing about protest and such on a site for a Chinese company

Correct me if I'm wrong, but helicopters and UAS can fly over a national park, just not land in them, right? So regulations appear consistent. Or am I missing something?