Still seeing issues even at higher resolutions. Oil painting effect.

ATXdrone · Dec 31, 2016

I've seen the same thing, but I was blaming it on the Auto Exposure, as I noticed it mostly when the scene changed from dark to light or vice versa. When you have very light and dark in the scene, as this shot does (and mine about mid way where I turn the MP around at 1:22 in the video posted at:
)

I get a massive change and bad compression around a single color.

I tend to agree its their compression algo... it's definitely tied to the wide range of exposure in the source videos. If there are very light/bright and more subtle, it's blowing out the light, and reducing the sensitivity in the main body that we are really interested in.

I'm going to try again with some other settings (AE off, maybe with some ND filters) to see how the system reacts.

visualair · Dec 31, 2016

erikgraham said:
This is the issue. DJI has implemented their own h.264 compression algorithms, and they aren't very good. Even on an X5r, if you look at the compressed video on the SD card (vs the RAW footage on the SSD), you get the same kinds of issues.

Totally agree. I was on the fence with whether I really need CinemaDNG using the x5r but the difference really is night and day when you compare, and I'll never look back. Their sensors are excellent, but their processing is terrible and really dumbs down what the sensors are capable of.

Certainly interested how much improved their compression algorithms are on the i2 and p4p. At least for now I've finally figured out the settings to get the best out of the mavic for filming, until the next firmware update where it all changes completely gain

erikgraham · Dec 31, 2016

visualair said:
Totally agree. I was on the fence with whether I really need CinemaDNG using the x5r but the difference really is night and day when you compare, and I'll never look back. Their sensors are excellent, but their processing is terrible and really dumbs down what the sensors are capable of.

Certainly interested how much improved their compression algorithms are on the i2 and p4p. At least for now I've finally figured out the settings to get the best out of the mavic for filming, until the next firmware update where it all changes completely gain

I'm gonna try to do some tests today to figure out what I like best. Quick question about your early post... When you push the sharpness up to +1, do you notice flickering or pixel noise in your video during playback? Particularly in "noisy" subjects, for example branches in a forest during winter - or any high contrast, high detail subject.

P.S. I'm still holding out hope that DJI will fix their compression algorithms and push a software fix.

4wd · Dec 31, 2016

erikgraham said:
............

P.S. I'm still holding out hope that DJI will fix their compression algorithms and push a software fix.

Is it possible they've deliberately crippled it so more serious videographers will grudgingly go for the more expensive models though?
I'm entirely convinced the camera can do better and furthermore early releases did not have the over zealous processing.

4wd · Dec 31, 2016

Just look at this.
Hard to believe it's the same camera.

erikgraham · Dec 31, 2016

4wd said:
Is it possible they've deliberately crippled it so more serious videographers will grudgingly go for the more expensive models though?
I'm entirely convinced the camera can do better and furthermore early releases did not have the over zealous processing.

I don't think they've crippled their compression algorithms deliberately. It's probably just that their camera guys aren't very good. They haven't been making cameras that long.

visualair · Jan 1, 2017

erikgraham said:
I'm gonna try to do some tests today to figure out what I like best. Quick question about your early post... When you push the sharpness up to +1, do you notice flickering or pixel noise in your video during playback? Particularly in "noisy" subjects, for example branches in a forest during winter - or any high contrast, high detail subject.

P.S. I'm still holding out hope that DJI will fix their compression algorithms and push a software fix.

I am really happy now ive finally got some decent settings in line with what I was expecting with this sensor. I wasnt expecting better than the Phantoms but, I was expecting identical for sure. I honestly dont get who does their software developing, the difference between zero and +1 is like being on the 1-10 scale of noise reduction... 1 for +1 and 10 for zero. Shocking difference and the amount of detail lost is ridiculous creating that mushy oil painting look. It reminds me of when they totally screwed up a firmware on the x5, went from really good to absolutely terrible for noise and banding in the shadows then it got rectified again.

I am sure every firmware they fiddle with a few software sliders without actually testing it. Next firmware will be the same Im sure, just have to check all the settings before hand..

My settings are.. +1 -3 0. I am hoping to get a really good test in tommorow with this as the weather is better so we`ll see how it fairs up. I am not seeing any flickering with playback on the brief tests I did with these settings. I do remember the first firmwares this was really bad.

Kilrah · Jan 1, 2017

And I'm still on -1 and get sharp details... it's weird.

erikgraham · Jan 1, 2017

Well I haven't been able to test because it snowed 8 inches. Maybe today.

It's a little pointless for me to test now because I don't have ND filters for the Mavic yet. I will anyway.

erikgraham · Jan 1, 2017

erikgraham said:
Well I haven't been able to test because it snowed 8 inches. Maybe today.

It's a little pointless for me to test now because I don't have ND filters for the Mavic yet. I will anyway.

Just ran some tests. Ended up playing with expos and gains the whole time. It's a pretty agile little thing by default. A bit too much for cold hands and gloves. Softened everything up for smoother flight. I did take a few videos using your settings though. Through the live feed it looked good. Gonna check the actual files on my computer tonight.

erikgraham · Jan 1, 2017

Kilrah said:
And I'm still on -1 and get sharp details... it's weird.

Well that's confusing. LOL. Are we all on the same firmware? I just updated (and lost Art as an option). I guess I'm gonna have to run a lot of tests.

lee11lee · Jan 2, 2017

Kilrah said:
And I'm still on -1 and get sharp details... it's weird.

Can you take a shot at some trees and share the video? I've seen a big problem only on trees with high frequency detail..

Kilrah · Jan 2, 2017

Dropbox - trees.mp4

For me details DO get mushed when using an ND filter to lower shutter speed, my conclusion on the Mavic so far is that it's best not to.

visualair · Jan 2, 2017

Kilrah said:
View attachment 3413

Dropbox - trees.mp4

For me details DO get mushed when using an ND filter to lower shutter speed, my conclusion on the Mavic so far is that it's best not to.

Is that with -1 sharpness too? this is so wierd, mine looks terrible with -1, but now it does make you wonder, does a slower shutter speed have an affect on the processing too if you say the mush apeared with an ND.

4wd · Jan 2, 2017

Just tried the +1 sharpness and on a bright day with shutter on about 1/2000 - the fizzing hurts your eyes, it might be OK on a dull day or with NDs.
You do definitely see more detail even in distant trees though, and reducing sharpness -10 in Lumetri make it more civilised, just not sure this is a good approach.

Kilrah · Jan 2, 2017

visualair said:
Is that with -1 sharpness too? this is so wierd, mine looks terrible with -1, but now it does make you wonder, does a slower shutter speed have an affect on the processing too if you say the mush apeared with an ND.

Yep I've always used -1.

And that's my conclusion too, the software must be activating some noise reduction below a certain shutter speed. Haven't found which yet.

lee11lee · Jan 2, 2017

visualair said:
Is that with -1 sharpness too? this is so wierd, mine looks terrible with -1, but now it does make you wonder, does a slower shutter speed have an affect on the processing too if you say the mush apeared with an ND.

Thanks kilrah for posting your reults.

Iused a shutter of around 1000 with -1 sharpness and it still was mush.. So either there is a huge difference between each mavic or there is a software bug.

Also it wouldnt make sense that they would introduce noise reduction on lower shutter speeds. In fact the other way around would probably make more sense, so you would get less flickering with high frequencies.

It would be great if DJI would just say what they are doing and clarify!

erikgraham · Jan 2, 2017

Kilrah said:
View attachment 3413

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Dropbox - trees.mp4

For me details DO get mushed when using an ND filter to lower shutter speed, my conclusion on the Mavic so far is that it's best not to.

I don't know about that. I think one of the problems is that everyone says to use an ND filter to get a shutter speed that is 2x your frame rate. That's basically the 180 rule and it dates back to film technology where holes were drilled into a spinning disk at 180 degrees from one another. We don't need to be a slave to that. We don't have the same kinds of mechanical limitations they did back then. If you shoot at 30 fps, try using an ND filter to get your shutter speed down to 1/80 or 1/100, instead of 1/60. Your image will be sharper, but still have motion blur where and when it needs it. Anyway, that what I plan on doing once my NDs arrive.

Too much sharpness and too fast of a shutter can cause flickering. You can see that in the grass in your video toward the end.

It is possible to get a nice clean image, with motion blur (not general smearing and blurrines, but attractive motion blur where needed), and the right exposure and color. I've done it on other digital cameras that use the same sensor. I think it's just going to take awhile to figure out. (It doesn't help if DJI keeps fussing with the firmware and changing things up on us)

Kilrah · Jan 2, 2017

That is the strange thing, I of course tried that and even at 1/160-200 I also get the mushiness like at 1/60. Remove the filter, and at 1/400 it's night and day like in the sample above. Note that the loss of detail is NOT motion blur since it also happens when perfecly still.
Maybe it's just the filter's glass, or the software threshold is higher than that. Didn't get a chance to test higher SS with filter to really put the responsibility on them with the weather / light we've had lately.

And yes it seems all Mavics are not equal. I've seen samples from people where the image came out like a flat watercolor even without any filter and all default settings... no idea what's really going on here.

imagebuff · Jan 2, 2017

I'm getting mush city. I think we have a firmware gremlin here somewhere and it may have something to do with the upgrade process in addition to the firmware version. Before the last update I was set to Art style and then updated .. no Art.. maybe this has something to do with it. My video is crapola watercolor. My buddy just received his Mavic and his video, under the same conditions, is fabulous. Not a bit of this noise reduction / compression nightmare. The oil painting effect is not the ND filters, not the shutter speed, not the ISO... we have a difference in behavior w/ different mavics. Something strange is afoot.