Technical Feasibility Reality Check

[Chaosrider]

I could have got roll & yaw of the wand mixed up but the net result is that both yaw and roll of the to he wand control the yaw of the drone.

Perhaps similar to a fixed wing aircraft in that regard. Nobody ever just yaws to make a turn. I watched the vid, and that was very helpful, thanks! The physical motion of the wand is greater than I had in mind, but I don't see why I couldn't get used to it.

I may have misread the previous comment from a different OP, but if you release the throttle, and hold the wand upright and motionless, what does it do? I saw the "Brake" function described in the vid, but the implication that I may have misread from an earlier comment was that, if you released the throttle and neutralized the want, it would keep moving indefinitely, which seemed seriously odd.

I understand that it doesn't have "auto-braking" like the Mini-2 does, but if you neutralize everything, won't it dissipate the motion it had eventually, and come to a hover?

I sure wish I could test fly one, with a demo from somebody who knows how it works.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

But IMO it is also somewhat of a niche instrument. A lot of FPV drones are much lighter, are built for aerobatics, crash resistant, but have limited camera resolution and very limited flight time per battery. The "other" FPV drones typically don't have GPS either and I would think would be a lot like flying a Mavic in Atti mode.

There is not a single thing in this description that would cause me to get anything "other" than the DJI FPV. This sounds exactly like the "compromise" that I want.

Thx!!



TCS

 

[slup]

There is not a single thing in this description that would cause me to get anything "other" than the DJI FPV. This sounds exactly like the "compromise" that I want.

Below is from a channel that's not biased towards Acro Quads ... he does equal much content about Photo Drones from DJI & Autel, so would say he's general opinion is fairly neutral.

When I got into the Acro Quad side of flying the reason was that I was more drawn towards the "flying" side, more than towards the "Photography/Videoing" side ... I wasn't out to get another "Photo Drone" with some kind of Acro Quad flavor ... & further more in a fragile design belonging to the DJI eco system regarding expensive accessories.

Many bring up that the DJI FPV drone gives up to 20min. flight times ... much longer than a Acro Quad. But this is a twisted truth, yeah you can get those flight times but only if you use it in ordinary GPS mode as a Photo Drone. Going for full manual (acro) you will be seeing 7-10min max which is on par with Acro Quads.

All this with safety features then ... RTH, GPS, stabilized flight modes, height hold & hovering in place? Well yeah, the DJI FPV drone have an equal amount of safety features as an ordinary Photo Drone ... if it's used in the "Photo Drone" modes.

Today a Acro Quad have reached a much better level of these "assisting" functions ... if you have a GPS chip on your Acro Quad you will have a simpler form of RTH, either by button or if losing the connection. You also have access to 2 other modes beside full manual mode (acro mode) ... in Horizon mode the Quad auto stabilize horizontally if the sticks are released, but you don't have a tilt angle limit so you can do full flips & rolls. In Angle mode the Quad acts very much as a Photo Drone ... & will not tilt more than a predefined tilt angle & with stick release it will auto stabilize horizontally.

So the safety or assistance features you miss out from a Acro Quad is auto height hold ... you always need to adjust the throttle to hold the height you desire. And it will not hold GPS position during a hover ... you as a pilot need to make adjustments in roll & pitch to keep it in position & fight wind. So if the Acro Quad is in Angle mode it will act exactly as a Mavic in ATTI mode ... without height hold.

Price wise then ... wouldn't a DJI FPV drone kit be cheaper instead of buying all separate parts?

Well ... not true, & especially not in the long run with all the "special" DJI accessories only intended for the DJI FPV drone.

This Acro Quad kit below (with the DJI digital system) have approx the same price tag as the DJI FPV drone kit ...



Going with this gives you the possibility to add in another Acro Quad if you want (larger or smaller) ... but still continue to use the same Goggles, Controller, Charger & Batteries.

Do you want max performance regarding speed & agility ... buy smaller LiPo high C-rated batteries & get flight times between 5-10min with aggressive flying carrying a GoPro. Want to cruise like a fixed wing & enjoy the scenery ... buy large LiIon batteries & get flight times between 20-30min... all on the same craft.

OK ...what about soldering, fiddling with small electronic components, flight controllers & ESC's ... all the needed adjustments you need to do in the firmware?

Not anything of that is needed ... the Acro Quad in the picture above is bought as "Bind & Fly", meaning all is built & all is adjusted in the firmware for the best flight performance, just plug in the battery & fly. If something breaks you can easily swap out a single component yourself & be good with it ... think's it has a tad to much prop wash when you come in & down with speed, then you CAN adjust settings to get a more suitable performance to your flying style.

The only reason I see, that speaks for the DJI FPV drone ... is if you want to consolidate & have both a mediocre photo drone & a mediocre acro quad in the same craft.

Without a doubt I would go for a proper "Photo Drone" for the best photography ... & a separate "Acro Quad" for the best flight experience.


And to answer your initial question about several goggles & spectators ... yeah, it's possible if using channel 8 (spectator) in the goggles on 25Mbit bitrate ... with a Acro Quad. Don't know if it's the same with the DJI FPV drone though.

 

[Chaosrider]

Below is from a channel that's not biased towards Acro Quads ... he does equal much content about Photo Drones from DJI & Autel, so would say he's general opinion is fairly neutral.

As soon as I started that video, I flashed back to my days as a radio talk show host, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. I have a great physique for radio...

What attracted me to the vid was the "Why I sold it" focus, with respect to a DJI FPV.

One of the first things he talks about is durability/repair cost. I have zero interest in personally repairing/tinkering with my drones. I'll replace a busted prop, sure, but that's about it. Anything worse than that, and it's off to Care Refresh.

He talked about it not flying very well in acro mode. I have zero interest in racing, and only slightly more than zero interest in acro.

What I'm looking for is a high quality, fully immersive FPV experience. Safety and stability. Everything else is peripheral to that.

He mentions that the camera quality isn't very good, but without any specific standard of comparison. As long as the video quality is no worse than my Mini-2s, that's fine with me.

I have zero interest in assembling a system, drone from here, goggles from there, controller from this other place. I want a system that is fully integrated from Day 1. Ready to Fly, which he says he's "moved on from". I'm currently fighting problems with a computer system that wasn't seamlessly integrated when I got it. I want to do as little of that as possible in my life.

He didn't like the lack of "one button flips and rolls", and that kind of thing. I have virtually no interest in that.

"The live feed is fantastic, but that's not really a reason to use the drone." He and I clearly value completely different things. That's *the main reason* that I want an FPV!

The guy had a lot of info that was useful to me, and he presented it well. From that, I'm getting the clear impression that, looking at the range of FPV features and options available, that the DJI FPV system was designed specifically for *me*!

Thanks for this, it was very helpful.

TCS

 

[Kilrah]

I've heard a couple of references to the DJI FPV not being "real" FPV. What does that mean, in your view? What constitutes "real" FPV?

It very much is in acro.

"The live feed is fantastic, but that's not really a reason to use the drone." He and I clearly value completely different things. That's *the main reason* that I want an FPV!

You'll love it then

What I want to be able to do is provide an experience very similar to dual instruction in a conventional aircraft.

Will that work, technically? Either natively, or with some tinkering?

Note that while you can have both goggles viewing the same feed only one can have the controls, so you're not going to do dual pilot without passing the same remote between the 2 people.

 

[Chaosrider]

And to answer your initial question about several goggles & spectators ... yeah, it's possible if using channel 8 (spectator) in the goggles on 25Mbit bitrate ... with a Acro Quad. Don't know if it's the same with the DJI FPV drone though.

DJI confirmed that this would work.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

Note that while you can have both goggles viewing the same feed only one can have the controls, so you're not going to do dual pilot without passing the same remote between the 2 people.

Yes, I thought about that, and that will work just fine.

In my fixed-wing flight training, there were essentially no cases where the instructor and I were using the controls at the same time. The whole "follow me through" thing was never the least bit appealing to me. Just tell me what I need to do, let me try it, and then tell me what's good and bad about the result. Lather, rinse, repeat until I get it right.

That's what I intend to do with my drone training, as the instructor.

Thx,

TCS

 

[slup]

First of all I want to say that I truly respect your point of view, your intentions regarding "FPV" & your future decision ... just want to give you some different aspects & perhaps clear up some misunderstandings.

...and it's off to Care Refresh.

It's here it may be very expensive ... this due to a couple reasons. If you will try to fly in a different way, a more "immersive" way, than you normally do with a Photo Drone ... crashes will occur, both light & hard. The DJI FPV Drone will risk to break even on those "touched a twig & fell into grass in low speed" incidents. And if you won't stay up high away from obstacles as you perhaps do with Photo Drones ... you will be using Care Refresh a lot, especially if you want to try to master Manual mode.

...not flying very well in acro mode. I have zero interest in racing, and only slightly more than zero interest in acro.

Acro mode have actually nothing to do with either Racing or Acrobatics in flight ... it's just another name for full manual mode, this as the most commonly used firmware (Betaflight) call the 3 available modes for Acro, Angle & Horizon.

If flips, rolls & high speeds aren't anything for you that's fine ... you still fly in Acro mode if you want the full freedom of movement in the air.

I'm not into filming in general ... but here's a short clip from where I tested out bi blade props & my new GoPro camera in a cruising manner. So all filmed with a GoPro on my 5" Acro ... or Freestyle Quad... flown in full manual mode (...or Acro mode )... no racing & no acrobatics, eh ... ok, one slow flip.

What I'm looking for is a high quality, fully immersive FPV experience

"Immersive" is that kind of expression that can be explained in 1000 ways if you ask 1000 persons ... for some it's immersive enough just cutting out the peripheral vision with a pair of goggles. For me it was that ... & a move that is impossible to do with a tilt locked Photo Drone with a gimbal ... diving. Without diving I couldn't get the feeling that I was onboard the craft with total freedom in the air. So I needed full manual (acro) mode in order to achieve that. And with full manual I soon was closer to ground & objects with higher speeds ... & the mishaps started to pile up. With a full carbon fiber frame the only consequence was that I had to do "the walk of shame", pick it up & continue to fly... no repairs needed at all besides some cleaning.

And here the difference in Goggle view between the analog system & the DJI FPV system used in quads ... pretty high quality there on the right.

...I have zero interest in assembling a system, drone from here, goggles from there, controller from this other place. I want a system that is fully integrated from Day 1. Ready to Fly

Nearly all that I showed you in the pic in my previous post is a "fully integrated system" ... the quad camera+video unit+receiver in the quad is DJI ... which pairs by a button push to the DJI controller & the DJI Goggles (the same goggles you get in the DJI FPV drone kit by the way...). So the only thing that's needed besides the full DJI FPV "system" is a charger & generic batteries. So I would honestly claim that you don't need to go the DJI FPV Drone route in order to get this integrated system. The remaining thing's to a "fully" integrated system (batteries +charger) will in the longer run mean more freedom for less $$$ for you.

Good luck with your future FPV endeavors ... I'm sure you get satisfied whatever you go for

 

[Kilrah]

pretty high quality there on the right.

It is better than analog, but there's as much difference between that and the DJI FPV than between analog and that if not more - for some of us that matters.

That's what I intend to do with my drone training, as the instructor.

The great thing about the DJI FPV is that there is one thing you can teach them and "bang into their head" early, the Pause button. Get them to try it frequently just to get them used to it.

 

[Chaosrider]

If you will try to fly in a different way, a more "immersive" way, than you normally do with a Photo Drone ... crashes will occur, both light & hard.

That's a little too fatalistic for my outlook on life! I went through my "crash phase" with my Mini-2s, and used up three Care Refreshes in the process. I still consider that to be a good balance between cost and learning speed.

I'll approach learning the FPV system gradually, and most importantly, incrementally. I'll start high up and far away from anything and slow, and then gradually get lower and closer and faster.

"The DJI FPV Drone will risk to break even on those "touched a twig & fell into grass in low speed" incidents."

More so than the Mini-2? I've had plenty of "touch encounters" that were non-damaging. One of my Mini-2s fell through 80 feet of pine tree, and suffered no damage of any kind. Are you saying the FPV is more fragile than the Mini-2? If so, what leads you to say that?

"Immersive" is that kind of expression that can be explained in 1000 ways if you ask 1000 persons ... for some it's immersive enough just cutting out the peripheral vision with a pair of goggles. For me it was that ... & a move that is impossible to do with a tilt locked Photo Drone with a gimbal ... diving. Without diving I couldn't get the feeling that I was onboard the craft with total freedom in the air.

Well, I'm a Libertarian Pragmatist, and and I long ago accepted that total freedom is not an option. And in any event, I don't crave what you're describing.

Nearly all that I showed you in the pic in my previous post is a "fully integrated system" ... the quad camera+video unit+receiver in the quad is DJI ... which pairs by a button push to the DJI controller & the DJI Goggles (the same goggles you get in the DJI FPV drone kit by the way...)

That doesn't sound like a fully integrated out-of-the-box system to me. It sounds like a system that you successfully integrated.

Did I miss something?

Good luck with your future FPV endeavors ... I'm sure you get satisfied whatever you go for

Thank you sir! And if I don't, I'll just keep poking around until I do.

Thanks for your detailed commentary!



TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

It is better than analog, but there's as much difference between that and the DJI FPV than between analog and that if not more - for some of us that matters.


The great thing about the DJI FPV is that there is one thing you can teach them and "bang into their head" early, the Pause button. Get them to try it frequently just to get them used to it.

Absolutely! I saw the Pause feature in the Wand video. With the Mini-2, all you need to go is let go of the sticks to pause. It will take just a bit of adaptation to program in the need to hit Pause.

Thx,

TCS

 

[slup]

... more so than the Mini-2? I've had plenty of "touch encounters" that were non-damaging. One of my Mini-2s fell through 80 feet of pine tree, and suffered no damage of any kind. Are you saying the FPV is more fragile than the Mini-2? If so, what leads you to say that?

In general higher speed & much heavier than a Mini 2 & in manual mode even smaller stick inputs done in surprise will create much quicker rotations... that will create much greater damaging forces once it touches ground.

That doesn't sound like a fully integrated out-of-the-box system to me. It sounds like a system that you successfully integrated.

Did I miss something?

Yeah... you miss that with the DJI FPV Drone kit you also bind drone, controller & goggles together in the same way... the only thing that differs is that you use a different looking charger & different shaped generic batteries that you can use in other quads also.

 

[Deleted member 103366]

if you release the throttle, and hold the wand upright and motionless, what does it do?

From memory, it stops.
If you think about, it 'sort of' must otherwise it would 'forever' fly at the fastest speed you commanded.
However, there might be a 'cruise control' function but if there is I did not get to the point go looking at that.

 

[Deleted member 103366]

More so than the Mini-2? I've had plenty of "touch encounters" that were non-damaging. One of my Mini-2s fell through 80 feet of pine tree, and suffered no damage of any kind. Are you saying the FPV is more fragile than the Mini-2? If so, what leads you to say that?

One consideration, the DJI FPV props are rigid, not foldable. As such I suspect a Mini's props to some extent have a 'knock away' aspect if coming into contact with twigs etc., the FPV's props have no such feature and may therefore be more susceptible to damage.

The FPV has a lot more mass and the possiblity of being flown a lot faster than a mini, as such any straight crash is likely to entail greater forces than those encountered by the mini. PLUS the mini's arms are, to some extent, shock absorbers both through flexing and, in the correct circumstances, folding. The FPV has no such cushioning.
Whether a fall through a 80ft tree would wreck and FPV I do not know but ignoring the initial collision such a fall would probably involve a multitude of small drops and low energy impacts.


Ooops I have just seen that Slup also gave the speed and mass answer.

 

[Kilrah]

Absolutely! I saw the Pause feature in the Wand video. With the Mini-2, all you need to go is let go of the sticks to pause. It will take just a bit of adaptation to program in the need to hit Pause.

The FPV will also stop when letting go of the sticks in N/S modes and the trigger of the MC unless you engaged cruise control mode, the pause button will just stop a lot more aggressively and also works in M mode in any orientation.

 

[Chaosrider]

In general higher speed & much heavier than a Mini 2 & in manual mode even smaller stick inputs done in surprise will create much quicker rotations... that will create much greater damaging forces once it touches ground.

More weight + more speed = more damage risk, I get that.

I fully intend to start in "Timid" mode, whatever the official name is for that. I haven't input any commands by surprise for many months, since my early training days.

I'm not looking to go play "Top Gun"!

Yeah... you miss that with the DJI FPV Drone kit you also bind drone, controller & goggles together in the same way... the only thing that differs is that you use a different looking charger & different shaped generic batteries that you can use in other quads also.

Our signals seem to be crossed. I understand all of the component linking issues.

I made good money for many years managing integration projects, from as small as $50K, to as large as $125M. At this point in my life, the fewer things that I have to integrate, the better. I don't like to "tinker".

What are you trying to optimize by doing this, instead of just buying the DJI FPV package? Save a few bucks? Why would I want to use a funky looking controller and generic batteries? What "other quads" are you thinking I might use?

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

From memory, it stops.
If you think about, it 'sort of' must otherwise it would 'forever' fly at the fastest speed you commanded.
However, there might be a 'cruise control' function but if there is I did not get to the point go looking at that.

That's the way it seems to me too.

I just got the sense from some OP that you couldn't just release the controls and have it (eventually) come to an equilibrium. My impression is that it doesn't have "auto-braking" like the Mini-2 does, but that's OK.

I may well have misinterpreted what the OP said.

Thx,

TCS

 

[BudWalker]

@Chaosrider I have a second set of goggles that are set to audience mode. I had video quality issues with the audience goggles that I've managed to improve but not fully fix. Take a look here
Audience Mode Quality
I finally installed higher gain patch antennas on 2 of the 4 antennas on both the primary and audience goggles.

That made a lot of difference but I still have video quality issues sometimes. Less often and less severe but OK now.

I got my dual band patch antennas from getFPV.com but they seem to have only the single band version now. I'm checking with getFPV now to see they still have an dual band version. Make sure the description explicitly says it's made to install on the DJI Goggles V2.

My approach to learning fpv flying was the same as how you want to learn fpv flying. I found using the simulator helped a lot, specifically the DJI simulator that connects to the goggles. My first incident could have been avoided if I had used the simulator to rehearse using the pause button.

I started out at 50 meters doing turns etc. I would then use the simulator to reduce altitude by 10 meters before trying it for real. The lower the altitude the more you have to depend on visual cues. Mush easier to get proficient by using the simulator to get lower.

Another bit of advice is don't fall into thinking you can land the FPV in manual mode. I always switch to N or S mode when it comes time to land it.

 

[Chaosrider]

One consideration, the DJI FPV props are rigid, not foldable. As such I suspect a Mini's props to some extent have a 'knock away' aspect if coming into contact with twigs etc., the FPV's props have no such feature and may therefore be more susceptible to damage.

OK, that makes sense. Replacing busted props is one of the few repair things (the only repair thing?) that I'm happy to do myself, so I'm not worried about that.

The FPV has a lot more mass and the possiblity of being flown a lot faster than a mini, as such any straight crash is likely to entail greater forces than those encountered by the mini. PLUS the mini's arms are, to some extent, shock absorbers both through flexing and, in the correct circumstances, folding. The FPV has no such cushioning.

I actually had exactly that happen during one of my early training flights. I had gotten overconfident in the area of my ability to quickly handle reverse commands, when the drone is facing you. I zigged when I should have zagged, and whacked my little Mini-2 into the edge of an awning. It fell about 6 feet to the ground in pieces, and I was sure it was a goner.

Not so! One of the pieces that fell was the strobe, which had been knocked off. The other was the piece of the prop that I had broken. The rest of the drone was intact, but one of the arms had started to fold.

The arm re-extended normally, and after i replaced the prop, the little Mini-2 flew just fine. The only actual casualty was the strobe. After that event, one of the 4 lights on the Arc was always on, even when the power switch was off. I wasn't willing to leave a rogue power circuit running on the bird, so that strobe was flushed, and replaced.

That Mini-2 was Defiant, the same bird that fell 80 ft through the pine tree, and is flying just fine today.

I'm firmly convinced that if I approach FPV cautiously and incrementally, rather than than with reckless abandon, that I will incur very little damage, and in case I do, I'll have Care Refresh for it.

Thx!

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

The FPV will also stop when letting go of the sticks in N/S modes and the trigger of the MC unless you engaged cruise control mode, the pause button will just stop a lot more aggressively and also works in M mode in any orientation.

That's exactly how I would expect it to work! This makes sense.

Some other OPs seem to have suggested otherwise, that there was some inherent instability in the controls. Either they were wrong, or I misunderstood them.

I'll be starting in "Timid" mode, and moving beyond that when and if the spirit moves me.

Thx!

TCS