UK/Europe - No ADS-B support ?

[RonanCork]

Hey Guys,

Hope your all keeping safe and well in these times.

Really exciting about the MA2 release and I'm hovering my finger over the "Buy" button.

Just spotted this from Ian in London - well worth subscribing to in fact, he's on the ball

He mentions about that in UK/Eurpore (outside America from what I can tell) there is no ADS-B support (even though it was advertised) and also some important rule/law changes

It may be of interest to folks I thought I'd post (thanks Ian)

Thanks Ro

 

[swoermck]

Hi,

this is already well known - officially to supply chain issues, only US (and Canada?) will get MAs with ADS-B first, EU to follow in the summer.

I was also shocked at first, but after investigating the details of ADS-B for Europe:

1) For the new EU Regulations for AIRPLANES you can read:

"Commission Regulation (EU) No 1207/2011, of 22 November 2011, lays down requirements for the performance and the interoperability of surveillance for the single European sky. From 7 June 2020, all aircraft that weigh more than 5 700 kg, or have a max cruise speed greater than 250 knots, will need to be equipped with ADS-B capabilities to be operated in European airspace.
This means that by June 2020, a huge fleet of aircraft needs to be retrofitted ... However, an ADS-B installation is much more than a “simple” change of transponder, and it may not be as easy to handle as it might initially appear."

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA_STC_NEWS_JUNE_2018.pdf

My take on that: the only planes I once in a while saw while flying my drone were small private aircrafts (max 4 passengers), and those planes are not affected by the new rule (and also too expensive to be retrofitted),

--> typical size of planes that might encounter during your flight won't have an ADS-B out transmitter, no advantage for drones
--> planes > 5.7 t in weight are normally not in our "drone airspace of max 120m" (except you're flying in the vicinity of an airport, which you shouldn't do anyway)

2) YES, new EU regulations are on its way, but technical requirements for e.g. C1 class drones are (next to others) Geo-Fencing and Remote Identification, nothing about ADS-B.

3) if you get a warning on the display for each passenger airplane above you (not sure if DJI will implement some kind of threshold when the alarm will kick in), it would be hard to concentrate on your filming when your app is constantly blinking and beeping

Crucial point for me is that small aircrafts won't be seen with an ADS-B in receiver on the MA 2, more the opposite: more annoying beeping during the flight.

My initial plan was waiting until summer until ADS-B equipped MA2 will arrive in Europe, but now I might prefer an MA2 without the receiver.

This are only my personal thoughts about ADS-B in drones, and I am only a hobby pilot (no commercial work with it).

What do you think?

cheers,

Stefan

 

[FoxhallGH]

The ADS-B issue seems to be a bit of a red-herring, in that the Mavic Air 2 with ADS-B will only receive broadcasts from other aircraft, so other aircraft will not 'know' that your MA2 is a possible conflict. You'll still need to take responsibility for evasive action to get the drone out of the airspace. The only time it's going to be really useful is when you are flying beyond VLOS - which in most countries is not legal anyway.

 

[ed956]

It has put me off buying for the moment too, even if it isn’t that useful I would feel cheated that I‘m paying the same price and getting less! Will be interesting to see when DJI starts remote ID.

 

[swoermck]

Just discovered this video demonstrating Airsense on a DJI Matrice:

With the drone on the ground and an airplane > 700m above the drone the pilot will still receive the warning.. could be bothering if every ADS-B equipped airplane will fill up the screen with warnings - and small aircrafts in our (drone) airspace won't be announced :-(

So yes, bothering me as well not getting the version with ADS-B, but maybe better flying/filming without all those (most of the time) useless warnings..

 

[DidJI]

If I decide to buy a MA2, it will be with ADS-B because
- It's the only real new feature on the MA2.
- If DJI updates the MA2 with ADS-B, my drone will loose some value if it's not equipped.
- If I go in the US with the drone, not sure if I can use it
- By principle I don't want to pay more for a incomplete version
- Coronavirus is not a relevant justification to deliver ADS-B in the US prior to Europe, since coronavirus itself was delivered before in Europe so I don't see why it could not be the same for the drone

 

[FoxhallGH]

One thing to be very careful about is that even if you were to get hold of a Mavic Air 2 with ADS-B (i.e. a USA version), it still would not be street-legal under the up-coming UAS rule changes for UK/European drone operation. These new rulings insist that the drone be marked with a logo showing what 'Class' the drone fits into. Although the MA2 seems to fit into the C1 Class, it doesn't have the logo - Therefore, it's classed as 'Legacy' (flown under Open Category A3 rules). In other words, it's not enough to just have the features ...


The other point is that the current ADS-B implementation on the USA version of the Mavic Air 2 doesn't comply with the future UK/European rules anyway! The rules (EASA doc' page 245) state that a Class 1 UAS has to broadcast the following information:
- the UAS Operator registration number
- The unique serial number of the drone
- Geographical position and height above surface or take-off point
- Course & ground-speed
- Location of the remote pilot or take-off point

None of the above is going to be provided by the ADS-B RECEIVER in the USA version of the Mavic Air 2 ... Even if DJI were to retro-fit every MA2 sold in UK/Europe with ADS-B - it's still going to be Legacy - Open - cat. A3 ... What is notable, is that with the exception of the Operator Reg' number, the above data is already transmitted by DJI drones anyway! The UK/European rulings don't seem to put any onus (quite rightly) on the UAS Operator to take responsibility for how that data is received and interpreted by a third party. It also puts no obligation on the UAS Operator to receive (e.g. ADS-B) info from other aircraft.

Having an ADS-B receiver would contribute absolutely nothing toward future conformity with EU/UK UAS rules ...

There may be some slight differences between the European and UK CAA stipulation of these rules, but I'm referring to the European broad-sheet, as it's a **** sight easier to read than the CAA mish-mash!

Easy Access Rules for Unmanned Aircraft Systems (Regulations (EU) 2019/947 and 2019/945) - Revision from April 2024 — Available in pdf, xml, and online format | EASA

This publication contains the rules and procedures for the operation of unmanned aircraft, displayed in a consolidated, easy-to-read format, with advanced navigation features through links and bookmarks.

www.easa.europa.eu

 

[DidJI]

Yes, I know this but CE certification is another subject not related to ADS-B
The subject here is to get the ADS-B feature in Europe.

 

[FoxhallGH]

Yes, I know this but CE certification is another subject not related to ADS-B
The subject here is to get the ADS-B feature in Europe.

And what is it going to do for you?

 

[swoermck]

The rules (EASA doc' page 245) state that a Class 1 UAS has to broadcast the following information:
- the UAS Operator registration number
- The unique serial number of the drone
- Geographical position and height above surface or take-off point
- Course & ground-speed
- Location of the remote pilot or take-off point

None of the above is going to be provided by the ADS-B RECEIVER in the USA version of the Mavic Air 2 ...

Yes, ADS-B is only a RECEIVER for signals of other aircrafts, not for remote ID and the other requirements you listed.

Nevertheless it seems DJI already has a solution at hand for this:

DJI Demonstrates Direct Drone-To-Phone Remote Identification - DJI

DJI today demonstrated a direct drone-to-phone, Wi-Fi based solution to remotely identify airborne drones, pioneering an easy way for anyone with a smartphone to monitor nearby drones for enhanced safety, security and peace of mind.

www.dji.com

and as stated in the document ".. Remote ID that can be implemented in many drones with just a software update,.." the question is if the MA2 after a "software update" will be classified as a C1 drone.. but I guess that's too early to judge now, as there maybe changes to come until the EU regulation will be finally implemented by the end of this year .. who knows..

And for now ADS-B won't make a difference for the "C1" classification - but a software update for remote ID as described in the linked article could of benefit for the C1 classification: if the MA2 can check all the C1 requirements, why should it be classified as A3 after 2022?

.. and maybe my old Mavic Pro 1 will get an update for remote ID as well and continue to fly in the C1 class? Would be nice!!!

 

[DidJI]

And what is it going to do for you?

Maybe a justification for paying more...
(If I decide to buy it)

 

[FoxhallGH]

And for now ADS-B won't make a difference for the "C1" classification - but a software update for remote ID as described in the linked article could of benefit for the C1 classification: if the MA2 can check all the C1 requirements, why should it be classified as A3 after 2022?

.. and maybe my old Mavic Pro 1 will get an update for remote ID as well and continue to fly in the C1 class? Would be nice!!!

The CAA have specifically stated that there will be no retrospective classification of drones that have not been manufactured in a process that applies an EASA Class label. In the Q&A section of the CAP1789 document (Annex C - page 43 - question 8), they state:

8. Can an existing UAS be ‘retrospectively marked’ with a ‘C’ Class from 1 November 2020 (e.g. will my 3kg drone will become a ‘C2 Class’ aircraft)?

No, this is completely wrong! The ‘CE’ Class markings do not work retrospectively. So, a current 3kg aircraft, for example, will never become a C2 model; it will only ever be ‘a legacy unmanned aircraft that weighs 3kg’. In the same fashion, a current 800g aircraft will not become a C1 model; it is just ‘a legacy unmanned aircraft that weighs 800g’.

In order to be given a particular Class marking, the aircraft must have been designed and manufactured to the relevant standards of that class marking. The only way you can get an aircraft with a ‘CE class marking’ is to buy one that has this marking.

The ‘legacy unmanned aircraft’ do not suddenly become unusable however:

• In the case of the 3kg ‘legacy aircraft’ it can only be operated in the A3 subcategory (far from people) within the Open category, or flown in the Specific category in accordance with an operational authorisation granted by the CAA.
• In the case of the 800g ‘legacy aircraft’, it could be operated in the A2 subcategory until 30 Jun 2022, using the transitional provisions, provided that its remote pilot has passed the A2 CofC theoretical test.

 

[Attorney58]

Guys I think buying MA2 without air-sense is a very good thing. Otherwise, other aircrafts will see your drone's location!

 

[Attorney58]

Yes, I know this but CE certification is another subject not related to ADS-B
The subject here is to get the ADS-B feature in Europe.

What will you do Airsense in Europe? There are many restrictions. Do you want to be complaint by another aircraft pilot? I would not want it. So I suggest you buy one without airsense

 

[z28lt1]

Guys I think buying MA2 without air-sense is a very good thing. Otherwise, other aircrafts will see your drone's location!

As already noted, Airsense is Ads-b in only. The Mavic Air will receive broadcast from other aircraft but does not send its location...although in many places the sending of information in some form will be a requirement in the future.

Why you would want to hide your location from manned aircraft is another discussion all together.

 

[Jonathan Pye]

I cannot see how this is a useful function so it bothers me not. Maybe us europeans will have a couple of seconds more batterytime lacking ads-b in our MA2s, worth it I say?

 

[Attorney58]

Are you sure mate? I do not want a complain from an aircraft pilot.

As already noted, Airsense is Ads-b in only. The Mavic Air will receive broadcast from other aircraft but does not send its location...although in many places the sending of information in some form will be a requirement in the future.

Why you would want to hide your location from manned aircraft is another discussion all together.

 

[z28lt1]

Are you sure mate? I do not want a complain from an aircraft pilot.

Yes, the MA2 is receive only for ads-b.

 

[DidJI]

What will you do Airsense in Europe? There are many restrictions. Do you want to be complaint by another aircraft pilot? I would not want it. So I suggest you buy one without airsense

Airsense works only as ADS-B receiver.
The main reason to wait is because I don't want to pay more for a missing feature

 

[swoermck]

• In the case of the 800g ‘legacy aircraft’, it could be operated in the A2 subcategory until 30 Jun 2022, using the transitional provisions, provided that its remote pilot has passed the A2 CofC theoretical test.

Maybe you can point me where to find that "legacy aircraft" and .". operated in A2 until 30 JUN 2022".?

From your linked document, it states for the open category (Article 4):

1. the UAS belongs to one of the classes set out in Delegated Regulation (EU) 2019/945 or is privately built or meets the conditions defined in Article 20;

and Article 20:

UAS types within the meaning of Decision No 768/2008/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council2, which do not comply with Delegated Regulation (EU) 2019/945 and which are not privately- built are allowed to continue to be operated under the following conditions, when they have been placed on the market before 1 July 2022:

1. (a) in subcategory A1 as defined in Part A of the Annex, provided that the unmanned aircraft has a maximum take-off mass of less than 250 g, including its payload;
2. (b) in subcategory A3 as defined in Part A of the Annex, provided that the unmanned aircraft has a maximum take-off mass of less than 25 kg, including its fuel and payload.

I'm not a lawyer, but to me this sounds as 800g aircrafts have to be operated in class A3 already from next year on, as soon as the new EU regulations are in place?