Very interesting arrest of drone pilots

AnzacJack · Apr 17, 2018

I guess my only problem was that as soon as the driver gave details, they took this straight to the security from the farm, who then obviously asked for more details.

The Real Heavy Metal · Apr 17, 2018

motopokep said:
both sides have valid points and my guess is that the drone pilots were flying very low to take pictures and video. However, this video presents a very interesting and narrow legal issue: can the police demand i.d. when they have no reasonable suspicion that you have, are, or about to committ a crime? In most states, including NY, the answer is no.

If I was the cop, I would have said "yes, I have reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime of recklessly endangering other's safety, including people and animals on that farm, by flying low over them, and have broken FAA rules, as codified in the CFR, by flying over people and not maintaining visual line of sight of the drone". The burden would then shift to the drone pilots to try to negate that with more than just a simple "no".

I'm not 100% positive they flew very low and out of VLOS, but if they got the farm's workers' attention, they were probably flying low enough...what's the rule, have to be above 200 feet over someone's private property? Aside from FAA rules, there are blanket rules about endangering someone's life, property, invading privacy in their own home or business, and the cops could have proceeded on suspicion of those violations.

In any event, had the officers have been a bit more educated on drones, they would have been able to articulate a probable cause or a reasonable suspicion, and mention that they need to confiscate the drones as evidence to review the video.

If it was me and I felt I've done nothing wrong, I would have showed my i.d. to just be on my way.

Just one problem with all of that. They can make all the accusations they want. If they can't back up their claim with actual evidence then it's liable. Matter of fact if they can not provide a single shred of evidence to back the claims you just mentioned then the officer can go to jail for falsifying reports. I know the argument. Officer was polite. OK i'll be polite and ask for your car or your house. What's worth more. Your car? your house? or the rights that allow one to have them and keep them. The officer never knew of a law nor whether a law was broken. Officer could have run the plate and asked if the car belonged to them. If not they could have contacted the registered owner and simply asked if these two men had the car by permission. Would have given them a pretty good idea of who at least one of them was. The plate, time date and location would have allowed the officer to track these guys down through the registered owner. There was no need to break or bend the law for the ID. Lot's of legal ways to skin a cat without Police officers infringing on rights or breaking the law by making things up. Police have the legal authority to detain and ID you if they suspect you broke a law, If they suspect you are currently breaking a law or they suspect you are going to break the law. The key word there is LAW. They have to be able to cite the law they suspect you under. If they cant then they no longer have legal authority to detain or get your ID. I respect the police to high heaven until their crimes are worse than mine.

I consider my self a rebel. But even I would not detain someone without clear legal authority. I would not falsely arrest and kidnap them. I would not falsely imprison someone.

I've watched a ton of videos of police and business's or club incidents with these people. They are anti hunting anti animal cruelty. If they broke the law then nail em just like anyone else. But the action in this video I see as no less than abuse of power. The half bald guy doing all the talking is in every organization video they have. You wouldn't need to be a super sleuth to track these guys down later if you get actual evidence of a broken law. These folks have gone after abuse by the law many times. But I've also seen them give credit to police in their videos when they followed the word of law also. I know. Officer was polite and just doing his job. His job is first an foremost to obey the laws he's enforcing. Even polite should not excuse criminal acts.

The Real Heavy Metal · Apr 17, 2018

TrayBoz said:
Understood. Obliged or not, why would you want to refuse to identify yourself to an officer of the law unless you just wanted to make them angry, make their jobs more difficult, or if you really had something to hide? Or just felt like being an A**?

(As if they already had a fun, safe, job, that pays well.)

If you believe that simply telling someone (of authority) your name is somehow violating your rights or your privacy, I think you have issues, IMO.

Some policemen might abuse their power, sure, but I'm not going to change that by being more difficult.

Here's an example why you do not give your name to police unless you are legally obliged to do so. When police ask your name they put your name in their report. Your name then enters their records. Not a biggie right? My son at about 12 or 13 got his name in a report. He was not charged and didn't break any law. He was just at a complaint and was asked his name for the report. Fast forward. My son Takes a course to become a conservation officer. He graduates and applies to get his possession acquisition license to buy fire arms. During the criminal records check they found that report with his name as a minor on it. That sparked a full 2 year investigation before they finally approved his application. 2 years he worked as armed law enforcement but could not personally buy a firearm.

When they ask your name and you give it to them it becomes part of official incident report and record. Whether you were Innocent or guilty. Involved or not. You are part of the record and now are connected to the incident. Have you ever heard police or prosecutors talking about someone's past, on the news or in court? They talk about past charges innocent and guilty, but, they also list off what the person has been involved in. Involved in can be any report that has your name in it.

Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. That includes your name you voluntarily gave them 10 years earlier when you were not legally required to do so.

Now lets relate this to a drone. You are out flying. You are careful and obey the law. But over the years some people have complained. Police investigate You give them your name. No law has been broken and you can prove it. Let's say this happens 6 times over 10 years. The complaints were flying too low over private property. You forget about the incidents because you did nothing wrong. Police are the good guys just doing their job. All of a sudden you get a complaint where you did break the law or they believe you broke the law and are willing to go to court for a decision. You expect to go in and even if found guilty get some leeway on the sentence or fine because it's your first offense. After all you've been flying safe and legally for many years. That faith in the justice system and polite officers will disappear pretty quick when the prosecution states the charges and uses the 6 other previous complaints for the same offense to back up his case. To the judge you are no longer a first time offender. You are a repeat offender that they finally have a chance to nail to the wall. Yes it will be a first offense but you will get the maximum they can give for it. If anything happens again that ends you in court? You'll have 7 complaints and 1 charge and conviction with a maximum penalty. This time you are gonna be treated like the uni bomber.

DroningOn · Apr 17, 2018

Excellent post Heavy Metal, well said. You’ve described a few good examples of the potential downside of the “just cooperate, why not?” mentality that is so prevalent on this forum. “We must always follow the law” works in both directions people and us not being required to show ID just because somebody with a badge and a gun is curious IS THE LAW.

motopokep · Apr 17, 2018

Metal, all interesting points. I can't believe it took 2 years to clear your son's record. In my state, you can get your criminal record (depending on the offense), completely EXPUNGED within 3-4 months. That's some bureaucracy you guys faced just to clear a name in the report. To me it's a 1 day ordeal, get a copy of the report, show it to the agency requesting to see it.

In your hypothetical, you did not specify the extent of prior complaints, how far they went. If the prior complaints led to charges being filed, that were later dismissed, yes, the judge would see that, would not be allowed to take that as aggravation since the cases were dismissed, but realistically as a human being, would take that into account to impose a harsher sentence. If the prior complaints were just police reports with no charges being filed, that did not start a court case, that information would not be visible in the court clerk's system and if the prosecutor was made aware of prior police reports and tried to bring it up at the sentencing hearing, any competent criminal defense attorney object....but overall, I do see your point.

I come from the Eastern Bloc when back in the day any police officer could approach anyone in public and ask to see their identification, for no reason at all, without citing any reasonable suspicion of a crime. I'm not saying it's right, but it has its benefits, due to high crime rates. Not saying it's right, but appropriate in certain high-crime neighborhoods to help prevent crime before it occurred. New York city has gone even further with its stop-and-frisk program.

motopokep · Apr 17, 2018

DroningOn said:
Excellent post Heavy Metal, well said. You’ve described a few good examples of the potential downside of the “just cooperate, why not?” mentality that is so prevalent on this forum. “We must always follow the law” works in both directions people and us not being required to show ID just because somebody with a badge and a gun is curious IS THE LAW.

I'm telling ya there must be more to the story than what the video shows. I'm pretty darn sure these guys were flying as low as they could, to take accurate video. It must have been provocative. Go fly 50 feet above your neighbor's property, circling around his backyard, getting close to bedroom windows, hovering above the pool. I'm sure the cops will be all over ya, citing all sorts of negligent endagerement, privacy and peeping statutes. I'm very anti police-harrasement and if a cop asked to see my id for no reason, would also ask to articulate what I've done wrong, but in this instance these pilots knew exactly what they've done wrong. We just don't get to see that part of the video, their surveillance.

I fly in residential areas weekly, staying about 200 ft above ground, I don't think anyone even notices I'm there.

DroningOn · Apr 17, 2018

motopokep said:
I come from the Eastern Bloc when back in the day any police officer could approach anyone in public and ask to see their identification, for no reason at all, without citing any reasonable suspicion of a crime. I'm not saying it's right, but it has its benefits, due to high crime rates. Not saying it's right, but appropriate in certain high-crime neighborhoods to help prevent crime before it occurred. New York city has gone even further with its stop-and-frisk program.

And even more crime can be prevented if the government can come into your home without a warrant to search for illegal drugs, guns etc. I’m not saying it’s right but it would cut down crime. Let’s give it a try..... after all, I have nothing to hide.

motopokep · Apr 17, 2018

if there is a credible tip, why not? FBI does this all of the time with preventing terrorism. They go even further by having agents working undercover as Islamic extremists with supposed connections to ISIS seek out individuals who are on the verge of being brainwashed, then they brainwash them even more by urging them to commit a bombing, and then arrest them and put them away for life for trying to follow along. Read about that Latino guy in the Key West that was enticed by an FBI agent. Poor guy would probably have never gone beyond reading ISIS propaganda if he was never approached by what appeared to be an ISIS radical.

If there is a credible tip, why not investigate? It only takes couple of hours to obtain a warrant based on credible information. Most on here would put themselves in the shoes of the drone pilots. Put yourselves in the shoes of the property owners. Again, we don't get to see what kind of flying was done. If I gotta business or residential property and someone's hovering very low, clearly taking detailed footage, I sure as hell would call the cops. These cops weren't real bright ones, couldn't come up with a few potential violations on the spot. I'm just playing devil's advocate, thinking out loud, I can argue both ways, both sides have valid points. I sure as hell don't want cops stopping me for no reason or coming to search my home for no reason. But think about it, they almost never (in the U.S.) approach someone who has not done anything wrong. There is usually some act done by the citizen which sparks interest by the police, and when the citizen does not cooperate, the situation only escalates.

Years back I had a next door neighbor who committed who was involved in a road rage incident and the cops found him house and came there to arrest him. He ran out through his backyard and came to my backyard to seek advice on what to do and I told him to go back to his home and surrender himself, which he did. Meanwhile, the cops saw him dart to my backyard, so they knocked on my front door to confront me, thinking I'm hiding him, and when I told them I am not and that he is not at my house, they asked me "are you lying to us"? I was offended by that and could have blown up at them for calling me a liar and told them to get off my front porch, but being rational, I said "no I am not, you are welcome to come in and see for yourself that he is not here", and they politely went away. Now imagine if I had blown up at them, they would have stormed my house, would have gone through every closet, room, and they would be entitled to do that because they had reasonable suspicion that a person who has committed a crime is on the run hiding in my house.

Here's another interesting video where the cop confronted a drone pilot flying over a police station and was schooled by the pilot and the cop's supervisor. Gotta love this one....but again, I would not dare to hover low over a police station. We shouldn't use the laws available to us to be ******** and gotta respect law enforcement.

Greg Smithski · Apr 17, 2018

The Real Heavy Metal said:
Here's an example why you do not give your name to police unless you are legally obliged to do so. When police ask your name they put your name in their report. Your name then enters their records. Not a biggie right? My son at about 12 or 13 got his name in a report. He was not charged and didn't break any law. He was just at a complaint and was asked his name for the report. Fast forward. My son Takes a course to become a conservation officer. He graduates and applies to get his possession acquisition license to buy fire arms. During the criminal records check they found that report with his name as a minor on it. That sparked a full 2 year investigation before they finally approved his application. 2 years he worked as armed law enforcement but could not personally buy a firearm.

When they ask your name and you give it to them it becomes part of official incident report and record. Whether you were Innocent or guilty. Involved or not. You are part of the record and now are connected to the incident. Have you ever heard police or prosecutors talking about someone's past, on the news or in court? They talk about past charges innocent and guilty, but, they also list off what the person has been involved in. Involved in can be any report that has your name in it.

Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. That includes your name you voluntarily gave them 10 years earlier when you were not legally required to do so.

Now lets relate this to a drone. You are out flying. You are careful and obey the law. But over the years some people have complained. Police investigate You give them your name. No law has been broken and you can prove it. Let's say this happens 6 times over 10 years. The complaints were flying too low over private property. You forget about the incidents because you did nothing wrong. Police are the good guys just doing their job. All of a sudden you get a complaint where you did break the law or they believe you broke the law and are willing to go to court for a decision. You expect to go in and even if found guilty get some leeway on the sentence or fine because it's your first offense. After all you've been flying safe and legally for many years. That faith in the justice system and polite officers will disappear pretty quick when the prosecution states the charges and uses the 6 other previous complaints for the same offense to back up his case. To the judge you are no longer a first time offender. You are a repeat offender that they finally have a chance to nail to the wall. Yes it will be a first offense but you will get the maximum they can give for it. If anything happens again that ends you in court? You'll have 7 complaints and 1 charge and conviction with a maximum penalty. This time you are gonna be treated like the uni bomber.

Greg Smithski · Apr 17, 2018

Stop and identify statutes - Wikipedia

The Real Heavy Metal · Apr 17, 2018

DroningOn said:
Excellent post Heavy Metal, well said. You’ve described a few good examples of the potential downside of the “just cooperate, why not?” mentality that is so prevalent on this forum. “We must always follow the law” works in both directions people and us not being required to show ID just because somebody with a badge and a gun is curious IS THE LAW.

Just trying to explain the modern times we live in. All police departments cooperate across the country and internationally. All records of everything are computerized. You are better off having 20 records where you broke no law. Didn't give your name. Were falsely arrested and then you sued even for a dollar and won. Then you are having 20 complaints where you cooperate and they don't charge you because of lack of evidence. First case it looks to a judge or jury like harassment and the other looks to the judge and jury like you are a habitual offender and a danger to the public. They put in your name and hit search and they know if you were questioned about a hang nail in Europe. Talk to any defense attorney. Everything you say will be used against you from the moment you open your mouth. NEVER volunteer anything you are not required to by LAW! Just remember folks. That polite officer just doing his job responding to a complaint against you? Well what he is actually doing is gathering evidence against you to support the complaint. He is looking for a law /s broken to charge you with. If he can't prove anything it goes down as lack of evidence. He isn't a judge or jury he can't find you or the complainant innocent or guilty. Every complaint and any evidence is logged. According to permanent legal record you are the accused in a lack of evidence complaint.

I wouldn't give my name either. Bad enough having your name entered into record when you didn't break a cited law. Really REALLY not too bright to voluntarily give my name and allow it entered when the officer can't even cite a law. When you go to court it isn't going to be a fawning polite police officer tripping over himself to say how polite and cooperative you were. It's going to be a prosecutor trying to convict you. If asked you'll have the officer flipping through a notebook to even remember that 1 out of 10,000 complaints he's responded to. It's the officers job to do his job. It's your job to protect your rights like they are the air you breath. Because when you research history you learn very quickly that your rights are in fact the air you breath. Those rights were gained and handed down to you by a whole lot of people no longer breathing air.

ac0j · Apr 17, 2018

Love all the legal advice from the armchair attorneys!!

Right or wrong these are the facts, cooperate with the police and all goes well, make their work tuff, you face the consequences.
Now if you are a criminal, you can try to argue your way out of identifying yourself. Good luck with that. This could have had a much worse outcome for the jerky activist.
Two things that often come into play when you disrespect the police, "Drop Gun" or "Drop Meth" dont even think this isnt a real possibility!

motopokep · Apr 17, 2018

ac0j said:
Love all the legal advice from the armchair attorneys!!
!

There are both cops and attorneys on this forum. Some of them like to fly Mavics and sit in armchairs

Cooperation with the police goes a long way in court, if you're guilty. If you were a jerk to the officer, you will be treated like one in court and will get a sentence a jerk should get. If you've done nothing wrong, chances are the police will never approach you. If they approach you and ask for id, if they're being a jerk about it, ask them to articulate what crime you are being accused of or what crime the officer thinks you are about to commit If they can't give you an explanation, tell them the law says they can't ask for your i.d.. If you want to make a stand for your rights and have nothing better to do, keep at it, you will eventually win your cause, but you will spend quite a bit some time being detained, you'll spend lots of money on a lawyer to prove your case, lots of time testifying in court and in depositions.

Reminds me of another instance when I decided to swing by my office late at night to pick up something, no other cars were parked in the parking lot, and I accidentally pressed the alarm button on my car's keyfob. Immediately an officer who happened to be driving by pulled up and asked me what I was doing there at this hour, and when I explained, he asked to see my id, and he was real polite the way he asked for it, so I readily let him see it, along with my business card showing this office address, and each of us was on our way. Had I decided to be a jerk, I would have been taken to the police station, charged with obstruction of justice, trespassing, until they found out who I am. Seriously, what's the more practical thing to do?

Bottom line, if the cop is a jerk to me, I'll be a jerk to him if I've done nothing wrong. If the cop is polite and shows courtesy, I'd react with same.

The Real Heavy Metal · Apr 17, 2018

ac0j said:
Love all the legal advice from the armchair attorneys!!

Right or wrong these are the facts, cooperate with the police and all goes well, make their work tuff, you face the consequences.
Now if you are a criminal, you can try to argue your way out of identifying yourself. Good luck with that. This could have had a much worse outcome for the jerky activist.
Two things that often come into play when you disrespect the police, "Drop Gun" or "Drop Meth" dont even think this isnt a real possibility!

Call a defense attorney Their first advise always is to keep your mouth shut. So if I, being one of these armchair attorneys, am wrong why would any defense lawyer you could call right now advise you to remain silent? Search Youtube Many many videos of Actual attorneys telling people to keep their mouths shut and why. You have the choice to talk but you have the right to remain silent. There is a reason for that. LOL.. police officer is a job. Most of the polite interaction is scripted for purpose. EXAMPLE: Greetings "Do you know why I stopped you?" They are politely asking you for a confession in the very first sentence. They are trained to ask these questions in this way to get a confession. You can not later fight a charge they invited you to confess too and you being cooperative volunteered to do. Maybe you confess to the burned out tail light which is why he stopped you or maybe you have no clue about the tail light and you nervously begin rambling on about possibly not signalling when you were switching lanes. 2 fines for the price of 1 stop.

Never argue with the police. There is nothing to gain from it. Remaining silent means remaining silent.

I am a bit concerned when people say I should forget about my rights and cooperate with police Or framing me with a gun or drugs is a real possibility??? So much for polite and just doing their job. Yes?

ac0j said:
Love all the legal advice from the armchair attorneys!!

Right or wrong these are the facts, cooperate with the police and all goes well, make their work tuff, you face the consequences.
Now if you are a criminal, you can try to argue your way out of identifying yourself. Good luck with that. This could have had a much worse outcome for the jerky activist.
Two things that often come into play when you disrespect the police, "Drop Gun" or "Drop Meth" dont even think this isnt a real possibility!

The Real Heavy Metal · Apr 17, 2018

motopokep said:
There are both cops and attorneys on this forum. Some of them like to fly Mavics and sit in armchairs

Cooperation with the police goes a long way in court, if you're guilty. If you were a jerk to the officer, you will be treated like one in court and will get a sentence a jerk should get. If you've done nothing wrong, chances are the police will never approach you. If they approach you and ask for id, if they're being a jerk about it, ask them to articulate what crime you are being accused of or what crime the officer thinks you are about to commit If they can't give you an explanation, tell them the law says they can't ask for your i.d.. If you want to make a stand for your rights and have nothing better to do, keep at it, you will eventually win your cause, but you will spend quite a bit some time being detained, you'll spend lots of money on a lawyer to prove your case, lots of time testifying in court and in depositions.

Reminds me of another instance when I decided to swing by my office late at night to pick up something, no other cars were parked in the parking lot, and I accidentally pressed the alarm button on my car's keyfob. Immediately an officer who happened to be driving by pulled up and asked me what I was doing there at this hour, and when I explained, he asked to see my id, and he was real polite the way he asked for it, so I readily let him see it, along with my business card showing this office address, and each of us was on our way. Had I decided to be a jerk, I would have been taken to the police station, charged with obstruction of justice, trespassing, until they found out who I am. Seriously, what's the more practical thing to do?

Bottom line, if the cop is a jerk to me, I'll be a jerk to him if I've done nothing wrong. If the cop is polite and shows courtesy, I'd react with same.

In you're event recollection you were very correct to hand over your ID. He had suspicion of a crime. In your boots in that situation there would be no fricken chance I would resist his request. 1 guy in a parking lot at night with a car alarm? He immediately has suspicion of possible vandalism, B&E or auto theft. No way not complying turns out good in that case. But then again when the officer asked for ID you could ask him what crime he suspects you of committing to justify the request and he should tell you without blowing a gasket. a question to justify and clarify the legality of a request isn't rude.

DroningOn · Apr 17, 2018

Any law enforcement officer will tell you that 90% of all “evidence” used is obtained from people through what they voluntarily say during an interaction. Keep your mouths shut!!

ac0j · Apr 17, 2018

DroningOn said:
Any law enforcement officer will tell you that 90% of all “evidence” used is obtained from people through what they voluntarily say during an interaction. Keep your mouths shut!!

No need to keep your mouth shut if you aren't a criminal.
You are never going to be pulled over or confronted for NO REASON. You may not know the reason till you cooperate. Being a **** head to the cop will give him more reason to think you are hiding something.

"Keep your mouth shut" is just about as bad of advice as suggesting throwing punches at the cop.
"keep your mouth shut" is what attorneys tell stupid GUILTY clients.

Bazzam · Apr 17, 2018

TrayBoz said:
Understood. Obliged or not, why would you want to refuse to identify yourself to an officer of the law unless you just wanted to make them angry, make their jobs more difficult, or if you really had something to hide? Or just felt like being an A**?.

I am an officer of the law, now please identify yourself...
Name:
Date of birth: