VLOS Reality Check

[Vic Moss]

With respect, are you suggesting that there is an acceptable death rate for non involved people stemming from the use of something that, for probably the vast majority of users, is an entertainment or passing phase for those users?

Yes, there is in all aspects of human life. Why should UAS be any different?

Should we shut down vehicle travel because of non-involved deaths? Commercial or GA air travel? Bicycles?

Almost all deaths are tragic. But we can't let a zero fatality requirement rule an industry. No where else is that done or even possible. Regulators requiring that for unmanned aircraft are asking for the impossible.

 

[Skybuyer]

I'll give you can find it in the sky, but at 2000', in the dark, can you VISUALLY tell orientation or attitude? Where are the red and green lights that denote starboard and port?The FAA rule does not allow using the display to gain that info.

There are multiple ways to mount stobes to determine orientation visually. While boating typically uses red and green for port and starboard, and a drone can as well, I'm not sure if the port/starboard orientation is a requirement or even standard protocol for drones- or even best suited for drones. The small LED's in some DJI drones has red LED's in the front and green in the back. While the LED's aren't bright enough to see very far, one or two red strobes on the front and green on the back provides excellent visual orienation.

That was NOT my question, and your taking a partial statement of mine out of context which twists it around. Re-read my post.

I see. I didn't see the sentence following.

 

[JeffreyS]

My Phantom is white. After a few hundred feet of distance, I can barely see it, let alone be able to make any important navigational decisions based on it's sighting. My Mavic 2 and 3 are dark, and I expect the same result. I usually fly a few thousand feet to make images in areas I can not get to on foot. The monitor is all I have at that time.

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

Yes, there is in all aspects of human life. Why should UAS be any different?

Should we shut down vehicle travel because of non-involved deaths? Commercial or GA air travel? Bicycles?

Almost all deaths are tragic. But we can't let a zero fatality requirement rule an industry. No where else is that done or even possible. Regulators requiring that for unmanned aircraft are asking for the impossible.

Oh well, we will have to disagree on that.
My perspective is vehicle travel is more or less necessary for the current way a lot of people live, flying a drone is not. Therefore I see the expectation of zero deaths, caused by a hobbyist drone, of uninvolved people is reasonable.
If it gets passed into law then I would expect to see 3rd party insurance become mandatory because I can forsee massive civil lawsuits for the pilot of a fatal flight.

 

[maggior]

While the LED's aren't bright enough to see very far, one or two red strobes on the front and green on the back provides excellent visual orienation.

Exactly, though I follow a different convention. For night flights I mount a red flashing strobe on the back leg and a green flashing strobe on the front. My logic is that if I see green, it is coming toward me. Green is good. If I see red, it is going away from me. Red is not good. I have a white strobe on top so other aircraft can see me. Flying at night, I can easily see my drone at twice the distance I can during the day and I can more easily tell the orientation.

I find this VLOS discussion interesting and surprising. I agree that there is value in learning how to fly strictly VLOS. I use my toy drones that I fly around my yard to keep that skill sharp. It's fun. I flew strictly VLOS first so it took me time to trust the video feed to use it to guide my flying.

 

[BobaFut]

Oh well, we will have to disagree on that.
My perspective is vehicle travel is more or less necessary for the current way a lot of people live, flying a drone is not. Therefore I see the expectation of zero deaths, caused by a hobbyist drone, of uninvolved people is reasonable.
If it gets passed into law then I would expect to see 3rd party insurance become mandatory because I can forsee massive civil lawsuits for the pilot of a fatal flight.

Is a drone crashing BVLOS (using the very stringent definition listed by the OP) inherently more dangerous or likely to cause injury than one crashing with VLOS?

And I’m sure the pros here would dispute the classification of drones as just a “hobby.”

 

[Yorkshire_Pud]

Is a drone crashing BVLOS (using the very stringent definition listed by the OP) inherently more dangerous or likely to cause injury than one crashing with VLOS?

And I’m sure the pros here would dispute the classification of drones as just a “hobby.”

I was not questioning whether or not BVLOS influences the danger of a crash and if there is a debate on that then it is for another thread..
Nor did I say every drone flyer is a hobby pilot, I made reference to hobby pilots being the majority of drone pilots etc..

I was questioning whether or not Vic Moss thinks there is an acceptable death rate associated with the use of drones.

 

[GFields]

I fly BLVOS regularly. And I have no qualms about who knows it. Even the FAA folks I am good friends with know this. I fly monthly stockpile flights that are 90% BLVOS, and 100% safe.

The FAA knows this is safer that regs allow at the moment. And we are working on ways to help the FAA expedite BVLOS rule changes. Our report will be ready to present at the March AAAC committee meeting.

Kenji and I will also be releasing the application process of our BVLOS waivers next month. That should also help get more BVLOS folks in the air legally as well.

Although it is not the job of the moderators of this forum to police FAA rule violations, we do strongly encourage each pilot to fully understand and comply with all FAA, State, and Local laws and regulations

 

[Skybuyer]

I'll give you can find it in the sky, but at 2000', in the dark, can you VISUALLY tell orientation or attitude? Where are the red and green lights that denote starboard and port?The FAA rule does not allow using the display to gain that info.

There are multiple ways to mount stobes to determine orientation visually. While boating typically uses red and green for port and starboard, and a drone can as well, I'm not sure if the port/starboard orientation is a requirement or even standard protocol for drones. The small LED's in some DJI drones has red LED's in the front and green in the back.

While the LED's aren't bright enough to see very far, one or two red strobes on the front and green on the back provides excellent visual orienation. I like this configuration as I can easily tell if my drone is headed toward me or away. I suppose if I were to use 4 colored strobes, 2 front, 2 rear it would work if I could remember that when facing me green is on the left and when away it's on the right. But one red on the front and green on the rear seem easier. Up in the air it's not like boats trying to find a safe lane approaching other boats at the same "altitude" level (on the water). I prefer red in the front, green on the back, white on the bottom for me, and white on the top for other aircraft (at night).

 

[Ty Pilot]

I suppose if I were to use 4 colored strobes, 2 front, 2 rear it would work if I could remember that when facing me green is on the left and when away it's on the right.

I was always taught when you can see both navigational lights, say the phrase; Red-Right-Return.

Works on land, in the sea and air.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

To answer your question, "why would you fly a drone with a camera?", the answer is simple: To see what you are recording.

Indeed, or composing photos . . .

I tend to watch the drone when taking of or landing, other than that it's pretty much all screen time.
VLOS (the spirit of the rule) is about looking up and being able to see your drone if you need to . . . an aircraft or helicopter sound in the distance, people coming into the area, analyse where these might be in conflict, react accordingly.

BVLOS is beyond where you can safely reconcile the 2 conflicts, not being able to relate where the drone is to the source of the manned aircraft sound (altitude, distance between, direction of flights, etc, or where it might be a potential danger to pedestrians etc.

Strobes can really be great to find you drone quickly when on the verge of VLOS (when eyeballing the drone constantly), where you have the drone 'disappear' against the sky or other background.
Really though, beyond this even with strobes visible out to whatever distance, that is not the spirit of the rule.

I've flown out 1km, once I recall, probably another 1 or 2 flights in my 5 years or so owning drones.
Alt has been pretty much on the deck, no higher than 20m (65') or so, and very remote inland Australia, where planes pretty much don't go, helis for a very rare rescue, and never that low.

I'm not in one sense bothered about bending this rule in these few cases, and neither is CASA, having given one of their drone reps the scenarios and having then say that's not what they're worried about. At all.

Yes, there is in all aspects of human life. Why should UAS be any different?

Should we shut down vehicle travel because of non-involved deaths? Commercial or GA air travel? Bicycles?

Almost all deaths are tragic. But we can't let a zero fatality requirement rule an industry. No where else is that done or even possible. Regulators requiring that for unmanned aircraft are asking for the impossible.

Of course in every aspect of life there is a risk, get out of bed, or stay in bed, you could slip and hit your head, or you could die of heart failure terribly obese in short time.

The rules are of course all about risk mitigation, no one can truly expect a zero, but so far so good for the drone industry / hobby !!

If current rules are followed, there is less risk of drone incident, just like rules to drive on the road.
Unfortunately, most rules are blanket made, to cover all levels of skills, and still don't always cover the lower ranges of people concerned, but they exist to make whatever we do is more safe.
Yes, some people are very capable drivers, or drone pilots, but authorities generally can't take those factors into account easily . . . I guess having part 107, or A2CofC, or RePL supposedly gives authorities a basic ground level of a pilots competence, but that's not totally a given either.

And for sure, sometimes authorities go overboard on rules, or have too many rules, almost same rules, true.

Like driving on the road, new safety tech comes out now and then, who remembers seat belt introduction in motor vehicles ?
Our annual road toll was around 30 per 100k people in 1970, now it's more like 4 to 5 per 100k.

In the years since, safety features like ABS, traction control, better tyre tech, AIR BAGS !!, accident avoidance braking, and a host of warning sensors . . . all can probably be compared to the great tech we have in consumer drones now, then we have tech like RID coming on line, to more or less be like radar, speed cameras, of the sky to force rules on blatantly unsafe drivers / pilots, those that can't help breaking the rules in ways that endanger others.

We can't get out of speeding fines on the road easily, but I bet you would be able to argue your flight case to FAA, or CAA, or CASA, and get a fair hearing on just how you considered this or that in the cause of some minor transgression.

 

[JeffreyS]

Indeed, or composing photos . . .

I tend to watch the drone when taking of or landing, other than that it's pretty much all screen time.
VLOS (the spirit of the rule) is about looking up and being able to see your drone if you need to . . . an aircraft or helicopter sound in the distance, people coming into the area, analyse where these might be in conflict, react accordingly.

BVLOS is beyond where you can safely reconcile the 2 conflicts, not being able to relate where the drone is to the source of the manned aircraft sound (altitude, distance between, direction of flights, etc, or where it might be a potential danger to pedestrians etc.

Strobes can really be great to find you drone quickly when on the verge of VLOS (when eyeballing the drone constantly), where you have the drone 'disappear' against the sky or other background.
Really though, beyond this even with strobes visible out to whatever distance, that is not the spirit of the rule.

I've flown out 1km, once I recall, probably another 1 or 2 flights in my 5 years or so owning drones.
Alt has been pretty much on the deck, no higher than 20m (65') or so, and very remote inland Australia, where planes pretty much don't go, helis for a very rare rescue, and never that low.

I'm not in one sense bothered about bending this rule in these few cases, and neither is CASA, having given one of their drone reps the scenarios and having then say that's not what they're worried about. At all.



Of course in every aspect of life there is a risk, get out of bed, or stay in bed, you could slip and hit your head, or you could die of heart failure terribly obese in short time.

The rules are of course all about risk mitigation, no one can truly expect a zero, but so far so good for the drone industry / hobby !!

If current rules are followed, there is less risk of drone incident, just like rules to drive on the road.
Unfortunately, most rules are blanket made, to cover all levels of skills, and still don't always cover the lower ranges of people concerned, but they exist to make whatever we do is more safe.
Yes, some people are very capable drivers, or drone pilots, but authorities generally can't take those factors into account easily . . . I guess having part 107, or A2CofC, or RePL supposedly gives authorities a basic ground level of a pilots competence, but that's not totally a given either.

And for sure, sometimes authorities go overboard on rules, or have too many rules, almost same rules, true.

Like driving on the road, new safety tech comes out now and then, who remembers seat belt introduction in motor vehicles ?
Our annual road toll was around 30 per 100k people in 1970, now it's more like 4 to 5 per 100k.

In the years since, safety features like ABS, traction control, better tyre tech, AIR BAGS !!, accident avoidance braking, and a host of warning sensors . . . all can probably be compared to the great tech we have in consumer drones now, then we have tech like RID coming on line, to more or less be like radar, speed cameras, of the sky to force rules on blatantly unsafe drivers / pilots, those that can't help breaking the rules in ways that endanger others.

We can't get out of speeding fines on the road easily, but I bet you would be able to argue your flight case to FAA, or CAA, or CASA, and get a fair hearing on just how you considered this or that in the cause of some minor transgression.

That was not my quote. I was mis-quoted by vindibona1. See my original posting to see what I really said.

 

[Skybuyer]

I was always taught when you can see both navigational lights, say the phrase; Red-Right-Return.

Works on land, in the sea and air.

It works. Yes it does. But because we view our drones, outgoing and incoming and all other ways, typically from a single position it is advantageous to have stobes front and rear. I've done the red/green/port starboard mounting thing. It was ok. But I think I prefer a single front (red) and a single rear (green). It is just easy and effective from an orientation point of view (at least for me).

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

That was not my quote. I was mis-quoted by vindibona1. See my original posting to see what I really said.

Well, I did quote vindibona1, not you directly, but . . .

I read your original post, and pretty much agree with it.

Regarding your post, the VLOS elaboration I made, to be able to look up and quickly see / assess your drones relation to any increasing risk, is still very relevant.

 

[Reginald E Johnson]

Steve Rhodes is an anti-drone drone guy. I know that doesn't make sense, but he's a helicopter pilot by training, and feels drone operators are second class citizens. Many local drone pilots (including many First Responder drone pilots) do not like Steve at all.

He and I have had more than one conversation about this. I wouldn't take much of what is on his site as actual fact.

Actually, what he says is true especially about Night Flying! I’ll look up and check my Mavic Pro 2 out at night but when you fly at night, you’re basically on your own! No Sensor help and you may run into something you can’t see!

 

[Ralph thompson]

With respect, are you suggesting that there is an acceptable death rate for non involved people stemming from the use of something that, for probably the vast majority of users, is an entertainment or passing phase for those users?

In fact all modes of transport have acceptable accident rates. Next time you board a commercial airplane, think about 1 in a million accidents is acceptable level. And there are 2000 fatalities on the roads in CANADA annually. I expect the vast majority are as a result of people travelling for vacations or none critical reasons,

 

[Lets Fly]

I would not be able to tell orientation by looking at the drone

Simply push the stick to go right, if the dot goes left you'll know your orientation, and vs versa. If it went left when pushing right it's facing you and again vs versa.

 

[Lets Fly]

I know most of us won't admit it, and it is sort of a taboo conversation, but really, how many of us actually watch our drones directly with our eyes while flying, recording or photographing? At the risk of being arrested, I'll admit that I don't always watch it and navigate by the controller monitor. How else can you tell what you're photographing? Why else would you fly a drone with a camera? VLOS is fine for takeoff and landing. Let's get real.

And the truth be told.

 

[JeffreyS]

I, for one, am nearly always flying VLOS. Not being a professional photographer, I line up my shot, then quickly check the video screen, then let her rip.

How could you possibly line up (compose) your photo without seeing it on the controller screen???

 

[GFields]

Stay on Topic