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Would you support a lawsuit over Remote ID?

Would you support a lawsuit over Remote ID?

  • I would support a lawsuit over remote ID with donations

    Votes: 77 37.4%
  • I support a lawsuit over Remote ID but not enough to give money

    Votes: 41 19.9%
  • I don’t care about this issue

    Votes: 18 8.7%
  • I like the remote ID rule and I am against a lawsuit

    Votes: 70 34.0%

  • Total voters
    206
The iPhone app can detect the drone how far?

With the wifi only about 60 feet.

But if it's on the internet...well yeah anywhere there's an internet connection. Just about the same as the requirement to have an internet connection to be able to fly in some remote area.
WiFi can go much further, as attested to by MA1 and MM1.

Details of how the RID was to be sent wasn't documented, but it is believed it will be an expansion to the broadcast beacon currently used to identify an access point.
And I was concerned without a published standard about agreement between manufacturers on how the data would be formatted. Then I realized it could be free-form text that a human could understand what was what. Only GPS coordinates would have to be labeled as to which is AC, which is RC or TO.
 
My vote would actually be for a compromise NO remote ID required when you are 5 miles or more from
Airports
Sporting events
US Military instillations
Areas considered Highly populated
ie where there are 20 or more buildings of at least 20 stories and considered densely populated
otherwise you are free to fly without remote ID
This should let you fly where cell phone service is sporadic and in non densely populated areas
I would also add within 2 miles of a no fly zone
The requirement for cellphone or other means of transmitting to the internet that was in the proposal was dropped. The final document only requires a broadcast. It doesn't matter if anyone is near enough or wants to pick it up, only that it's available for reception.
 
Im thinking that the Remote ID will likely bring us more privileges' both as a hobbyist and a 107.
That makes sense to me and giving my location seems to be fair in order to have that given to me.

If your going to put a license on my drone that can be scanned than I want the Freedom that should come with that.
The ability to fly far, fast , beyond line of sight and more places , if rules are broken and you get caught you pay a fine. very similar to driving a car , after so many strikes your grounded.

If it goes the other way and they put hand cuffs on my drone on every flight than there might be a rising , but it needs to play out , its just to soon to fight when we dont know what they are going to do or allow or change so this is what I hope for .

Phantomrain.org
Gear to fly in and out of the storm.

Don’t count on Remote ID providing more freedom for hobby or most Part 107 opps.

Remote ID will not allow one to fly BLOS since that is unsafe to manned and commercial UAV aircraft. Remote ID doesn’t enhance safety except indirectly by improving enforcement, which the FAA hopes will deter scofflaws from breaking the rules.

If Remote ID helps to deter scofflaws from breaking the rules, especially the rules about LOS, max altitude, and airspace, then opps for commercial UAV package delivery, air taxi, and other air transport services will be more feasible, i.e., safer than they are now.

Remote ID will make it easier for local law enforcement and the public to enforce the FAA’s rules, which the FAA doesn’t have the resources to do themselves.

Remote ID is being pushed by, and will benefit most, big business - not hobbyists or Part 107 pilots.

I’m a Private Pilot, Part 107 Pilot, and RC hobbyist and I would like the rules to address safety, including the safety of UAV pilots, not what big business wants. at the expense of the rest of us.
 
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It's not a matter of finding your name and home address, it's a matter of finding within 100ft of where you are piloting.

Also location of AC since that can be followed remotely from its broadcast without visually following it, and finding where it lands. That's a concern delivery companies have. Why would they be concerned if the information wasn't public?
Wait a minute...there's another logistical problem with the amazon delivery thing. Just from what I know...the farther away you get in a obstacle course like a neighborhood or business area, once you go down below the radar (RC) the drone might not be responding to you anymore. So now you'll have to drive the delivery van over to where it dropped off the package and come pick it up. So much for drone delivery. Wouldr you like a free drone with your delivery? Compliments of Amazon...
 
I would donate. On limited income so couldn't afford a lot. But these rules are bullsh.. I understand most of what they have now(before new ones) , but this is a hobby for christ sakes. If you're making money,they have a set of rules already. But other wise.
 
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Dan, you might be interested in Jaffe v Google, federal appellate case from 2013. I believe the gist of case is that intercepting even an unencrypted communication may still break federal law.


Quick Summary:

In the course of capturing its Street View photographs, Google collected data from unencrypted Wi–Fi networks. Plaintiffs brought suit under federal and state law, including the Electronic Communication Privacy Act aka the Wiretap Act, 18 U.S.C. § 2511. Google argued that its data collection did not violate the Act because data transmitted over a Wi–Fi network is an “electronic communication” that is “readily accessible to the general public” and exempt under the Act. 18 U.S.C. § 2511(2)(g)(i). But the district court and the Ninth Circuit rejected Google's argument and Google settled for $13 million in 2019.

View attachment 121050
That's one hell of a drone. Has more cameras than anything I have.
 
I’m with you on this one to a great degree. Remote ID broadcast should be available to other licensed broadcasters and FAA only. Or the FAA only. I don’t need or want some crackhead getting a hair brained scheme to track me, my drone or any ground equipment I use. Even local police officers ought to be required to go through part 107 certificate training specifically for law enforcement to be allowed to track for law enforcement purposes. They should have to attend an FAA law enforcement part 107 with recurrent upgrade with an in depth aeronautics/airspace law focus. An FAA commissioned remote atc if you will. If it’s used as a safety feature only, it’s good. Otherwise it opens up a can of worms for those who have no understanding of the law and no regard for the safety of the drone pilot sector. There are many categories of people in this world who may gain access to the current proposed system for nefarious reasons. At this point I would be willing to support a no monetary gains type class action lawsuit that was specified as a general lawsuit or a public sector proposed amendment bill to help protect the FAA from preventable liability and Rec/107 pilots alike from being victimized. It’s easy to impose an unknown infringement of safety from behind the safety of a post 9/11 airport somewhere. The USA is a vast and culturally diverse complexity of local issues and freedom alike and that should be taken into account anytime the FAA imposes something such as broadcast information availability.
Let's get back to the airspace incursion situation, which would make RID more like ADS-B. But FAA isn't going to do ADS-B on UAS. I don't think they want the confusion. So that being what is really being accomplished with the RID? Nothing that I can see. So in order to make it look like they are doing something, they'll use RID. But if there just happens to be some drones in the same vicinity maybe we can prevent them from having an incursion, but this specification is probably not anywhere in the RID (broadcasting but not listening). (Some drones were able to fly formation with each other, but I don't think this is an industry standard, they probably came in the same box all using the same controller or coded together and requires a waiver under 107). So even if there was an avoidance, it MIGHT be between drones, but not between drones and manned aircraft.
 
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That sounds great, but even in 2021 that would be difficult to mandate, possibly even implement. DJI's fencing doesn't get updated instantly that we're blessed they fence TSRs, if known far enough in advance. There's only one of their consumer models that has ADS-B and it doesn't report altitude, and many manned aircraft don't transmit ADS-B as I have discovered trying to figure out from FR24 how low some planes are going over my house.

Perhaps we can begin to implement that eventually all will have the ability but too soon to mandate.
I've seen that some of those cases might be that they still have a Mode S, and when they went ADS-B they are using UAT for that. The UAT doesn't seem to carry as far as the Mode S, but there are many variables. Some you can see for miles and others don't show up until they are right on top of you.
 
Hey @Chip. Did you see this Advisory from the FAA, DoT, DoJ, FCC, and DHS to LE about the detection of UAS?


This is dated August 2020 and makes many of the same legal claims as we have! I almost can’t believe it!
The way I read this the FAA alfederal government is essentially saying Remote ID is legally dubious at best. This is written during the period that they were finalizing the remote ID rules so we can prove by the FAAs own legal analysis that they know this rule is illegal.

Look at this little jewel the FAA gave us. This is a quote from the document above.


I. Federal Criminal Laws

Congress has exclusively authorized the Departments of Defense, Energy, Justice, and Homeland Security to engage in limited UAS detection and mitigation activities to counter UAS presenting a credible threat to covered facilities or assets, notwithstanding certain otherwise potentially applicable federal criminal laws, including various laws relating to surveillance.1 In addition, the FAA has been expressly authorized to engage in limited testing activities notwithstanding certain federal criminal surveillance laws.

Because no other entities have been granted that authority, it is important that state, local, tribal and territorial (SLTT) and private sector entities without such statutory authority (including SLTT law enforcement organizations, SLTT governments, and owners and operators of critical infrastructure, stadiums, outdoor entertainment venues, airports, and other key sites) understand that federal laws may prevent, limit, or penalize the sale, possession, or use of UAS detection and mitigation capabilities.3

Capabilities for detecting and mitigating UAS may implicate federal criminal laws relating to surveillance, accessing or damaging computers, and damage to an aircraft. Below, the advisory sets out separately how detection and mitigation capabilities may implicate these laws.
A. Detection Capabilities
Systems that detect, monitor, or track UAS often rely on radio-frequency (RF), radar, electro-optical (EO), infrared (IR), or acoustic capabilities, or a combination thereof. These capabilities detect the physical presence of UAS or signals sent to or from the UAS. In general, whether a detection or tracking system implicates federal criminal surveillance laws, such as the Pen/Trap Statute and the Wiretap Act, depends on whether it captures, records, decodes, or intercepts, in whole or in part, electronic communications transmitted to and from a UAS and/or controller, and the type of communications involved. Detection systems that emit electromagnetic waves or pulses of sound or light that are reflected off an object and back to the detection system—such as radar, EO/IR, and acoustic systems—are less likely to pose concerns under federal criminal surveillance statutes. Such technology senses the sound or electromagnetic waves produced by or reflected from the UAS and does not capture, record, decode, or intercept electronic communications. However, the use of such systems must also comply with laws and regulations administered by the FCC and FAA, as discussed below.

By contrast, systems using RF capabilities to detect and track UAS by monitoring the communications passed between a UAS and its ground control station may implicate the Pen/Trap Statute and Wiretap Act.

• The Pen/Trap Statute, 18 U.S.C. §§ 3121-3127, criminalizes the “use” or “installation” of a “device” or “process” that “records,” “decodes,” or “captures” non-content4 dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling (“DRAS”) information. DRAS information is non-content information used to transmit or process communications; depending on the system, this could include device serial numbers, cell site information, media access control (MAC) addresses, the international mobile equipment identity (IMEI), or the international mobile subscriber identity (IMSI). Use or installation of a pen register or trap and trace device is prohibited, unless conducted pursuant to a court order or when a statutory exception applies
.

With respect to the Pen/Trap Statute, the exceptions state that they are limited only to providers of wire or electronic communication services.”
 
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@Chip I think we can add the The Pen/Trap Statute, 18 U.S.C. §§ 3121-3127 to our growing list of federal laws Remote ID violates. The FAA sure believes that.


18 U.S.C. §§ 3121

(a)In General.—
Except as provided in this section, no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section 3123 of this title or under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) or an order from a foreign government that is subject to an executive agreement that the Attorney General has determined and certified to Congress satisfies section 2523.

18 USC § 3127(3)

(3) the term “pen register” means a device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication, but such term does not include any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing, for communications services provided by such provider or any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire communication service for cost accounting or other like purposes in the ordinary course of its business;


Thanks FAA!
 
Just to be clear, by "way beyond the reach", I meant they are in the flight levels and don't have to worry about some crazy neighbor shooting them down. -
I've just had a very quick look on the ADS-B Exchange website and saw quite a few aircraft showing as below 1000ft with at least 2 of those below 500ft (away from airfields).
 
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Hey @Chip. Did you see this Advisory from the FAA, DoT, DoJ, FCC, and DHS to LE about the detection of UAS?

Brett, that document is great find and I agree it lays out blueprint for challenging the interception or recording of Remote ID signal. Maybe FAA needs to ask Congress to amend Wiretap statutes and grant immunity from all civil and criminal liability to any member of the public who intercepts the signal on their cellphone. After all, the FAA is encouraging the public to use their cellphones to intercept the signal and track private UAVs in apparent violation of federal law.
 
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To everybody here that is concerned with the crime and safety implications of the general public having your location while flying.

I thought it was necessary to share the FAAs response to your concerns that is buried deep in the 470 pages of the final remote ID rule. They suggest that "community outreach is a better vehicle to tackle these issues" and that if you are concerned you should only "operate from a secure or restricted access location as necessary."



https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachments/RemoteID_Final_Rule.pdf page 113-

"Some commenters raised the issue that the availability of this information could put remote pilots at greater risk of assault, theft, or other crimes. Though the FAA acknowledges the concerns expressed by commenters regarding personal safety, the FAA emphasizes that there are rules against interfering with an aircraft. The FAA finds that removal of the proposed requirement is not the appropriate solution, rather community outreach and other precautions are better suited to tackle these issues. Some commenters noted that sharing of the control station location is counter to the current practice of locking aircraft doors; however, the FAA finds that the analogous and appropriate practice would be to operate from a secure or restricted access location as necessary."
 
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Brett, that document is great find and I agree it lays out blueprint for challenging the interception or recording of Remote ID signal. Maybe FAA needs to ask Congress to amend Wiretap statutes and grant immunity from all civil and criminal liability to any member of the public who intercepts the signal on their cellphone. After all, the FAA is encouraging the public to use their cellphones to intercept the signal and track private UAVs in apparent violation of federal law.
@Chip it looks like this document originates from the FCC though the DOT has signed on. I wonder if filing an informal complaint with the FCC is worth anything? The laws we have been looking at seem to be squarely in the FCC's arena.

Would be really nice if we could get the FCC to fight our battle for us. Maybe a pipe dream.
 
@Chip it looks like this document originates from the FCC though the DOT has signed on. I wonder if filing an informal complaint with the FCC is worth anything? The laws we have been looking at seem to be squarely in the FCC's arena.

Would be really nice if we could get the FCC to fight our battle for us. Maybe a pipe dream.
The document is very helpful and informative and I am impressed the FCC took the time to research, draft and publish it. But, I think its more designed to inform and educate than set policy or enforcement directive for others. Trying to work with one agency against the other might be like trying to herd cats!

1610316160213.png
 
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To be clear this is about broadcasting location data to the general public and law enforcement about the pilot’s location without a warrant not Remote ID in general.

The premise of the lawsuit revolves around the 2018 Supreme Court decision that says location data is personal property protected under the 4th amendment against illegal search and seizure. The goal of the lawsuit is to prevent this data from being accessed without a warrant by anyone and everyone. LE would still be able to obtain the data with a warrant they just wouldn’t be able to harass pilots who are obeying the law. Violators would still be brought to justice.
the case cited re: geolocation data refers to that of a cell phone or other similar device; when your using a part of the national airspace (in any country) it is NOT unreasonable to provide real time data as to identity and location. i think your missing the point and this is clearly not a privacy issue within this context. this data is also REAL TIME so a search warrant is only applicable to what would be considered historical data in this context. there is no expectation of privacy to users of the air space.
 
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