Beware of Temp NFZ Activating while your in the Air. Drone downed by DJI

[RayOZ]

Some people are still arguing abt the legality of flying over the TFR. As the OP pointed out, he’s warning others abt how DJI’s execution when TFR is in place when their product is in the air.
There will be people who do not do their research properly. There will be people who will decide they are going fly anyway.
Should they lose their drone? There’ll be arguments and will always be arguments from both sides.
Should innocent bystanders be at risk? No. DJI’s execution puts others at risk. Why didn’t they explicitly put in manual this is how their product would behave.

 

[sar104]

Some people are still arguing abt the legality of flying over the TFR. As the OP pointed out, he’s warning others abt how DJI’s execution when TFR is in place when their product is in the air.
There will be people who do not do their research properly. There will be people who will decide they are going fly anyway.
Should they lose their drone? There’ll be arguments and will always be arguments from both sides.
Should innocent bystanders be at risk? No. DJI’s execution puts others at risk. Why didn’t they explicitly put in manual this is how their product would behave.

Maybe they could make point more clearly in the manual but, given that it is well-known that the aircraft won't take off in an authorization zone without being unlocked, it's not surprising that it will autoland if it finds itself in one. That point is made on the DJI FLY SAFE website, which is referenced in the manual.

 

[Greg6032]

Hi
I think in this case there is 50%
Pilot fault and 50% DJI
When I want fly my drone
First I am checking DJI NFZ info
For any temporary NFZ. And also AirMap very good source
In San Francisco very often we have temporary NFZ because
A lot of games
But what I don’t understand
why DJI set this zones as category A witch is mostly used for airport air space and require immediate
landing
Why DJI can’t create temporary
NFZ with rule send drone immediately to home point and lend there
This is will be much safer

 

[sar104]

Hi
I think in this case there is 50%
Pilot fault and 50% DJI
When I want fly my drone
First I am checking DJI NFZ info
For any temporary NFZ. And also AirMap very good source
In San Francisco very often we have temporary NFZ because
A lot of games
But what I don’t understand
why DJI set this zones as category A witch is mostly used for airport air space and require immediate
landing
Why DJI can’t create temporary
NFZ with rule send drone immediately to home point and lend there
This is will be much safer

Perhaps because it is illegal to fly at all in a TFR without controlling agency authorization. If DJI programmed the aircraft to make its way home in that situation then they would be complicit in breaking the law, by themselves causing the aircraft to continue to fly autonomously in a TFR.

 

[Greg6032]

Hi sar104

You are absolutely right
But in some areas it is absolutely
not safe to land drone immediately
For example we have stadium in San Francisco downtown
Usually there is no any restriction
to fly except game time
Like I say I all the time check NFZ info but if some one did not check
And fly drone above stadium and temp NFZ start working
Drone will land on the stadium
witch is absolutely dangerous

 

[sar104]

Hi sar104

You are absolutely right
But in some areas it is absolutely
not safe to land drone immediately
For example we have stadium in San Francisco downtown
Usually there is no any restriction
to fly except game time
Like I say I all the time check NFZ info but if some one did not check
And fly drone above stadium and temp NFZ start working
Drone will land on the stadium
witch is absolutely dangerous

I'm not sure why a controlled auto landing would be dangerous, but I'm sure that I could contrive some unusual situation in which it could be problematic. In any case - flying a drone over a major sports stadium just before a match clearly falls into the realm of malicious behavior that isn't what this kind of geofencing is trying to address.

 

[ac0j]

Hi sar104

You are absolutely right
But in some areas it is absolutely
not safe to land drone immediately
For example we have stadium in San Francisco downtown
Usually there is no any restriction
to fly except game time
Like I say I all the time check NFZ info but if some one did not check
And fly drone above stadium and temp NFZ start working
Drone will land on the stadium
witch is absolutely dangerous

What is absolutely dangerous is a drone pilot that flys a drone over a stadium with people in it. TFR or not. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[altaic]

I think the OP has done a service to the community by pointing out the autonomous behavior. A lot of cars these days can detect speed limit signs and are drive-by-wire, but they don’t slam on the brakes if the speed limit drops from 65 to 35 because of construction or something. And that’s not as much the fault of the driver— how many drivers miss a speed limit sign and pull over to go walk back to check the sign to make sure they will be in compliance with the law? The fact is, humans will not always (or even sometimes) do the right thing, and our autonomous systems have to work around that in the best non-optimal way they can. Sure, lawmakers could make make the punishment more severe and the laws more complicated than most people have patience for, but where does that get us? Strife and chaos that hurts industries/economies. Maybe it results in only CDL drivers on the highways; I can’t imagine. Sure, drone flight isn’t that crucial to society right now, but it’s in its infancy. Stymying it at this stage it a mistake when we can simply be realistic about people and the autonomous systems and the governments that interact together in our weird and wonderful existence.

Anyway, I think those are the last two cents I’ve got, so if you made it this far, thanks for your consideration.

 

[Greg6032]

Guys I absolutely agree with both of you and I am not doing this also
But a lot of people do not cares
That why we have every year more and more restrictive rules

 

[RayOZ]

Maybe they could make point more clearly in the manual but, given that it is well-known that the aircraft won't take off in an authorization zone without being unlocked, it's not surprising that it will autoland if it finds itself in one. That point is made on the DJI FLY SAFE website, which is referenced in the manual.

My had always thought it’ll be an invisible bubble that just prevents the drone from entering the zone. I was never game enough to even try. It’s the whole idea that the drone would just start landing when it finds itself inside a TFR is new and a little scary. I also thought if it did accidentally fly in, it can only reverse out, and not go in further or ascend.
I think if this is more widely known, most responsible pilots would be more cautious or just avoid such areas. They think twice abt getting waivers, and it might not save them anyway.

 

[AMann]

It was NOT A NFZ when I took off.

What I meant was you took off, and then were [still] flying when the area became a active NFZ. Unfortunately, the mistake was that if you could have checked for upcoming TFR’s, you probably wouldn’t have had that problem. I easily could have made the same mistake as I used to only check B4uFly and the FAA website. But as sar104 points out, both of these are incomplete and don’t always contain critical TFR information. Apps such as AIRMAP and Kittyhawk work well for this.

As for what happened when the NFZ activated, thats really sad and I am sorry. At least your bad experience will make a good learning one for many of us.

 

[kilomikebravo]

They didn't tell pilots there's this MCAS system that takes over the plane under certain conditions, until after the first crash.

Ray: I've read about the incidents with MCAS and as I recall, only SOME operators didn't properly train the crews, specifically some international carriers. US air carrier crews did get the training in the box. So informing operators wasn't the problem, it's the design of the MCAS system that's the issue.

 

[kilomikebravo]

One thing that's comical is the temp NFZ for the stadium covers far more area then the actual Airport NFZ.

Chances are this is so any potential flyovers by the military (or any other demo teams,) do not have to worry about other aircraft in the area. And since they fly TO the TFR area, (rather than takeoff and immediately climb away as in the case of an airport,) more clear area around the stadium would be needed than around an airport. I am willing to bet that this is TFR SOP for the Feds at any athletic stadium event even if no flyover is scheduled.

 

[raylo32]

It is also an exhibition quality example of overzealous rules that drives otherwise responsible flyers to become no limits drones scofflaws. And the real bad guys, of course, won't care about any of this. I am glad I don't live and fly near any pop up NFZs... at least that I know about. But If I did I certainly would make a habit of checking after these sad stories.

This thread is turning into an exhibition-quality example of why there is a widespread demand for increased regulation of sUAS. Even among a community of (arguably) relatively enlightened pilots the degree of misunderstanding of these basic laws is quite frightening.

As for the FAA TFR website, it is clearly marked as not necessarily current and not the approved method to check for NOTAMs.

Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

 

[sar104]

It is also an exhibition quality example of overzealous rules that drives otherwise responsible flyers to become no limits drones scofflaws. And the real bad guys, of course, won't care about any of this. I am glad I don't live and fly near any pop up NFZs... at least that I know about. But If I did I certainly would make a habit of checking after these sad stories.

Thanks for continuing to drive home the point I was making. So now the imposition of a TFR itself is "overzealous", and you think that observing the restriction should be optional? And it shouldn't apply to you because "the real bad guys, of course, won't care about any of this"? And you don't see any irony at all in classing this as responsible flying, do you?

 

[sar104]

My had always thought it’ll be an invisible bubble that just prevents the drone from entering the zone. I was never game enough to even try. It’s the whole idea that the drone would just start landing when it finds itself inside a TFR is new and a little scary. I also thought if it did accidentally fly in, it can only reverse out, and not go in further or ascend.
I think if this is more widely known, most responsible pilots would be more cautious or just avoid such areas. They think twice abt getting waivers, and it might not save them anyway.

That's how it works trying to enter a TFR from outside. This problem arises if you find yourself inside a TFR or other restricted airspace, either through flying into it without having waited for a GPS lock or because it becomes restricted while flying. Immediately landing is really the only compliant course of action. The correct solution is to take personal responsibility for checking NOTAMs before flying.

 

[Marty Markoe]

A question in my mind in which I do not recall seeing a definitive answer, is there a way to override an imminent forced landing?

 

[sar104]

A question in my mind in which I do not recall seeing a definitive answer, is there a way to override an imminent forced landing?

No - you still have lateral control but you cannot override the descent and landing.

 

[paulatkin73]

This thread is turning into an exhibition-quality example of why there is a widespread demand for increased regulation of sUAS. Even among a community of (arguably) relatively enlightened pilots the degree of misunderstanding of these basic laws is quite frightening.

As for the FAA TFR website, it is clearly marked as not necessarily current and not the approved method to check for NOTAMs.

Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

i never argued with you about that point, btw, as it relates to human`s behavior and a freedom of choice.
what i am stating is this - i absolutely object the approach to make the software in the robot to be the decision maker, arbiter and executioner of ANY policies. it is a decision that a human operator has obligation to execute, based on the input from the robot, but NOT otherwise.
i also understand your position, but, we will have to agree to disagree. just wait for your car to start locking doors with you inside and driving you autonomously into the police station for minor offences it believes you committed, then, as it is a same exact thing.
i absolutely object any solution that authorizes robot to make a decision to contradict human operator`s will, no matter what is the reason behind it.

 

[Vegasdad]

Just wondering what would happen if you hit the red x?