Beware of Temp NFZ Activating while your in the Air. Drone downed by DJI

[DanMan32]

I only got to post 108 so forgive me if this has been addressed.
One can negate decent on an auto-land due to low battery, just counter the decent rate with equal ascent rate on the stick. Can one not do the same in this situation?

I'm in the camp that land rather than RTH in this situation is ridiculous. I agree that one gets caught in a sudden TRF, they should evacuate. The question becomes the method of evacuation. An auto-land over a roadway or similar location is dangerous no matter how gentle the decent. Would we expect a helicopter to land wherever it happens to be if suddenly caught in a TFR zone? Of course not. The helicopter pilot himself would get out of there, or land in a safe place he can control, maintaining altitude for a short time if needed. Even ATF would direct him to land at X, or leave the area, not make him decend wherever he happens to be.

 

[RayOZ]

Horizontal control is maintained during M2 autolanding. I have tested this in a NFZ and one can easily land as long as you're high enough and not to far over water.

Might be different behaviour to TFR.

@bkushner Did you try to move horizontally while it was auto landing? Can you provide the flight logs for your experiment? When it comes to drones @sar104 sees the world in '1's and '0's. I'd like to see his analysis on the flight log.

 

[sar104]

Wow your jumping to a lot of conclusions.

Feel free to point out which conclusions were incorrect or not substantiated by your posts in this thread..

 

[sar104]

Might be different behaviour to TFR.

@bkushner Did you try to move horizontally while it was auto landing? Can you provide the flight logs for your experiment? When it comes to drones @sar104 sees the world in '1's and '0's. I'd like to see his analysis on the flight log.

The OP posted the flight log in post #3 of this thread. Did you think I was just guessing what happened?

 

[RayOZ]

The OP posted the flight log in post #3 of this thread. Did you think I was just guessing what happened?

That log comes from Litchi without message column and OP wasn't sure what was happening. The experiment he did later, he know what was happening and perhaps he was try trying to operate the drone while it was auto landing. Did the drone ignore any horizontal input while it was auto landing?

 

[dewster]

My hacked Mavic is immune to NFZs. Mu-haw-haw-ha. I just know not to fly in them.

 

[sar104]

That log comes from Litchi without message column and OP wasn't sure what was happening. The experiment he did later, he know what was happening and perhaps he was try trying to operate the drone while it was auto landing. Did the drone ignore any horizontal input while it was auto landing?

The aircraft responded to the controls during autoland. The pilot applied full elevator just after autoland started and the aircraft headed back at 28 mph.



He also applied full up throttle, of course, which reduced the descent speed from 6.7 mph (3 m/s) to 2.2 mph (1 m/s).



That did not provide enough time however (40 s) to get back from that far out:

 

[RayOZ]

The aircraft responded to the controls during autoland. The pilot applied full elevator just after autoland started and the aircraft headed back at 28 mph.

View attachment 71675

He also applied full up throttle, of course, which reduced the descent speed from 6.7 mph (3 m/s) to 2.2 mph (1 m/s).

View attachment 71676

That did not provide enough time however (40 s) to get back from that far out:

View attachment 71677

I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[gnirtS]

Would we expect a helicopter to land wherever it happens to be if suddenly caught in a TFR zone? Of course not. The helicopter pilot himself would get out of there, or land in a safe place he can control, maintaining altitude for a short time if needed. Even ATF would direct him to land at X, or leave the area, not make him decend wherever he happens to be.

Firstly a helicopter is in constant radio contact with ATC and most likely has a transponder so can coordinate a safe exit corridor.
Secondly, a helicopter wouldnt get suddenly caught in a TFR. Because part of the pilots pre-flight planning involves checking NOTAMs so he'd be fully aware of any restrictions and their timings along the route ahead of time.

 

[MarcoMavic2pro]

I can testify that if you are at a height of 30 meters above a river (worse lower) and start autolanding you have very little chance of not letting it fall into the water. As I have already said I have no doubt that Dji resolves this serious behavior in these situations. It is only a matter of time. The important thing is to know what you are risking first until it is solved. I think it would be important to make this behavior known to as many people as possible. It is too bad to see your drone fall into the water or elsewhere ...

 

[gnirtS]

Id agree they should document the behaviour in the manual (even though barely anyone bothers reading it).

Ultimately though, its still the end users responsibility to make sure they're not flying in a NFZ.

 

[frank candor]

don't sell yer remote controller get a new bird from DJI

 

[RayOZ]

I would suggest getting the remote to display “Auto Landing” and beep 2 mins before TFR becomes active, without actually descending. After that it’ll definitely start to descend. That should be enough time to get to safe spot to land.

 

[bkushner]

The aircraft responded to the controls during autoland. The pilot applied full elevator just after autoland started and the aircraft headed back at 28 mph.

View attachment 71675

He also applied full up throttle, of course, which reduced the descent speed from 6.7 mph (3 m/s) to 2.2 mph (1 m/s).

View attachment 71676

That did not provide enough time however (40 s) to get back from that far out:

View attachment 71677

I was heading for the sure....not my home point

 

[bkushner]

I would suggest getting the remote to display “Auto Landing” and beep 2 mins before TFR becomes active, without actually descending. After that it’ll definitely start to descend. That should be enough time to get to safe spot to land.

Or better year warning on takeoff?

 

[BigAl07]

I would suggest getting the remote to display “Auto Landing” and beep 2 mins before TFR becomes active, without actually descending. After that it’ll definitely start to descend. That should be enough time to get to safe spot to land.

I think that should be VERY doable for DJI. Maybe have a timer to indicate time remaining until the TFR goes HOT.

IIRC when I get an Airspace Authorization there is a small clock icon somewhere are a reminder that it's a time sensitive approval. I can't remember where it is but I remember seeing it before taking off.

 

[Thomas B]

I think that should be VERY doable for DJI. Maybe have a timer to indicate time remaining until the TFR goes HOT.

IIRC when I get an Airspace Authorization there is a small clock icon somewhere are a reminder that it's a time sensitive approval. I can't remember where it is but I remember seeing it before taking off.

AirMap runs one starting from time specified with a digital, large one and counts down the time left on your LAANC clearance. BTW I always request about 50% more time than I will be actually flying to allow for updates, changing batteries, etc.

 

[Thomas B]

Still, since even the FAA page states that not all nofly zones may be on the list it would seem most reasonable to allow 2-3 minutes to clear a nofly zone if it starts in airspace that was open when you flew into it. DJI could program that easily.

 

[Owen Manderfield]

The DJI forced autoland on suddenly finding the AC in a NFZ should be a failsafe feature.

Yes, the situation of being in NFZ *should* never happen in and ideal world. BUT in the real world mistakes do happen and these features should help the situation in the safest way reasonable.

In the TNFZ situation in the OP - it has been stated here that the TNFZ starts long before the event it is meant to be protecting. In which case landing ASAP is *not* the correct solution as there is plenty of time for either a forced RTH or at least some operator control over landing site. AUTO-LAND on a road or people is clearly far more dangerous than just flying home *before* the TNFZ's event has started.

Again, I repeat I agree the situation should not have arisen- but if it does - then the system should minimise the danger to all.

After all, if a child runs out into the road in front of your car - you don't say "that child should have looked before running out" and just run him over. No, despite the situation *should* not have occured, it did, so you swerve or break to minimise danger.

 

[Owen Manderfield]

I think DJI get it right with the permanent NFZ. When you take of, if you are near a NFZ it warms you that you are near a zone. You can still fly but you now know that you can't fly in some directions.

With the TNFZ - the system could easily warm the operator before takeoff "Temp NFZ nearby starting in 15 mins".

Easy solution, problem solved before it's stated. If the operator ignores the warnings - that's a different matter- again forced RTH with time to fly home before the TNFZ would be the obvious solution to keep everyone here happy. (Apart from the people demanding total freedom of choice obviously)