Beware of Temp NFZ Activating while your in the Air. Drone downed by DJI

[RayOZ]

Ray: I've read about the incidents with MCAS and as I recall, only SOME operators didn't properly train the crews, specifically some international carriers. US air carrier crews did get the training in the box. So informing operators wasn't the problem, it's the design of the MCAS system that's the issue.

I brought up the MCAS cos I was just watching a local investigation about it yesterday, and they said the MCAS was not mentioned to any pilots during the initial training. Boeing said the 737 Max is so similar to the 737, it only required pilots to do a quick online training. It was only after the first crash, Boeing tried to blame pilot error, then mentioned the MCAS and a lot of pilots was surprised by it.

 

[RayOZ]

That's how it works trying to enter a TFR from outside. This problem arises if you find yourself inside a TFR or other restricted airspace, either through flying into it without having waited for a GPS lock or because it becomes restricted while flying. Immediately landing is really the only compliant course of action. The correct solution is to take personal responsibility for checking NOTAMs before flying.

I still think it's a potential safety risk to the public where the drone is uncontrollable during descent. At least every owner of a DJI drone should be aware of this. Then avoid flying in any blue zone. I am glad the OP brought it to this forum's attention.

 

[sar104]

I still think it's a potential safety risk to the public where the drone is uncontrollable during descent. At least every owner of a DJI drone should be aware of this. Then avoid flying in any blue zone. I am glad the OP brought it to this forum's attention.

It's not uncontrollable - it just that the landing cannot be aborted.

 

[raylo32]

No, no, no. There you go completely missing the point... again... and equating a very fine point into supposed opposition to TFRs and airspace regulations in general. Again, I say no and agree that TFRs are entirely appropriate. All several of us are saying is that if you are airborne in an area at the instant a TFR activates the couple of minutes maximum for RTH to remove the UAS from the TFR zone is essentially equally effective in complying with the TFR as the 30-seconds to 1 minute to land in place that risks landing in a dangerous place and/or loss of aircraft.

Thanks for continuing to drive home the point I was making. So now the imposition of a TFR itself is "overzealous", and you think that observing the restriction should be optional? And it shouldn't apply to you because "the real bad guys, of course, won't care about any of this"? And you don't see any irony at all in classing this as responsible flying, do you?

 

[sar104]

No, no, no. There you go completely missing the point... again... and equating a very fine point into supposed opposition to TFRs and airspace regulations. Again, I say no and agree that TFRs are entirely appropriate. All several of us are saying is that if you are airborne in an area when one activates the couple of minutes maximum for RTH to remove the UAS from the TFR zone is essentially equally effective in complying with the TFR as the 30-seconds to 1 minute to land in place that risk landing in a dangerous place and/or loss of aircraft.

I'm not missing the point at all - your point is obvious, and your point is wrong. How did autolanding suddenly become dangerous - it's the default action on low battery and a user-selectable result of failsafe RTH. As for the risk of losing the aircraft - that wouldn't have happened either if the OP had been following any of the applicable laws. But he was over a mile away, out of VLOS, in a TFR, in surface Class B airspace on the extended center line of KPHL runway 08/26, over water, and he hadn't made any attempt to check NOTAMs and didn't understand how the geofencing system works.

 

[raylo32]

And you still avoid the fact there is minimal difference in time for the aircraft to land or exit the TFR zone via RTH. And again, the TFR will establish long before the event starts or condition exists therefore requiring the aircraft to land in place is absurd. You can keep arguing. I am done. Hopefully DJI and FAA will come to their senses before we all go No Limits.

I'm not missing the point at all - your point is obvious, and your point is wrong. How did autolanding suddenly become dangerous - it's the default action on low battery and a user-selectable result of failsafe RTH. As for the risk of losing the aircraft - that wouldn't have happened either if the OP had been following any of the applicable laws. But he was over a mile away, out of VLOS, in a TFR, in surface Class B airspace on the extended center line of KPHL runway 08/26, over water, and he hadn't made any attempt to check NOTAMs and didn't understand how the geofencing system works.

 

[BigAl07]

A question in my mind in which I do not recall seeing a definitive answer, is there a way to override an imminent forced landing?

I was flying (with Authorization up to 100' AGL) a week ago Sunday on the edge of airport property (a NFZ). For some reason my aircraft did take off and ascended as planned (as stated we had approval to fly up to 100'AGL). For some reason in the middle of the flight our "Authorization" expired and the aircraft (Mavic Platinum) literally stopped forward flight, hovered in place, and put a warning on the screen something like "You have entered a Restricted Zone. Aircraft will AutoLand in 10 seconds.....9, 8, 7, 6....." No option was presented to override or modify the landing process at all.

At the end of the count down the aircraft indeed initiated an AutoLand sequence and I 100% had no control what so ever. I could not change descent rate, move horizontally, or even yaw the aircraft around. Fortunately it was over clear terrain and merely landing in the middle of a dirt parking lot. It landed in a very small vertical column and powered down. If I were closer to the area (we were working in another state at the time) I would like to do some test flights to try and re-create this and take notes etc. I'm honestly relying completely on memory for this.

I've contacted DJI about how my AUTHORIZATION suddenly became invalid (it was opened in the software for 3 -days) and they can't explain it either.

 

[RayOZ]

It's not uncontrollable - it just that the landing cannot be aborted.

I definitely agree it should not be aborted, just need to be able to move horizontally to a clear and safe landing spot, and a slower rate of descent. I just don’t see the current execution allows time and opportunity for that.

 

[sar104]

I was flying (with Authorization up to 100' AGL) a week ago Sunday on the edge of airport property (a NFZ). For some reason my aircraft did take off and ascended as planned (as stated we had approval to fly up to 100'AGL). For some reason in the middle of the flight our "Authorization" expired and the aircraft (Mavic Platinum) literally stopped forward flight, hovered in place, and put a warning on the screen something like "You have entered a Restricted Zone. Aircraft will AutoLand in 10 seconds.....9, 8, 7, 6....." No option was presented to override or modify the landing process at all.

At the end of the count down the aircraft indeed initiated an AutoLand sequence and I 100% had no control what so ever. I could not change descent rate, move horizontally, or even yaw the aircraft around. Fortunately it was over clear terrain and merely landing in the middle of a dirt parking lot. It landed in a very small vertical column and powered down.

I've contacted DJI about how my AUTHORIZATION suddenly became invalid (it was opened in the software for 3 -days) and they can't explain it either.

That's weird. Horizontal control isn't usually lost.

 

[BigAl07]

That's weird. Horizontal control isn't usually lost.

I totally agree. Bu the whole thing didn't "add up" so I presented it to DJI and they haven't given me any reasons as of yet. It's possible I'll be going back to the same spot again this month or next and I'll be sure to document and TEST better.

PS: I added some additional information to my original post at the same time you were replying so it didn't make it into the quote you made...

 

[RayOZ]

I was flying (with Authorization up to 100' AGL) a week ago Sunday on the edge of airport property (a NFZ). For some reason my aircraft did take off and ascended as planned (as stated we had approval to fly up to 100'AGL). For some reason in the middle of the flight our "Authorization" expired and the aircraft (Mavic Platinum) literally stopped forward flight, hovered in place, and put a warning on the screen something like "You have entered a Restricted Zone. Aircraft will AutoLand in 10 seconds.....9, 8, 7, 6....." No option was presented to override or modify the landing process at all.

At the end of the count down the aircraft indeed initiated an AutoLand sequence and I 100% had no control what so ever. I could not change descent rate, move horizontally, or even yaw the aircraft around. Fortunately it was over clear terrain and merely landing in the middle of a dirt parking lot. It landed in a very small vertical column and powered down. If I were closer to the area (we were working in another state at the time) I would like to do some test flights to try and re-create this and take notes etc. I'm honestly relying completely on memory for this.

I've contacted DJI about how my AUTHORIZATION suddenly became invalid (it was opened in the software for 3 -days) and they can't explain it either.

So DJI is aware of the issue. I wonder if they think that’s Ok. If more of you guys who do have to do this sort of work bring it to DJI’s attention, maybe they’ll fix it.

 

[RayOZ]

That's weird. Horizontal control isn't usually lost.

Isn’t that what this post was about? I keep saying I am concerned there was no control, as mentioned by the op, during the auto land.

 

[BigAl07]

So DJI is aware of the issue. I wonder if they think that’s Ok. If more of you guys who do have to do this sort of work bring it to DJI’s attention, maybe they’ll fix it.

Yes they are VERY aware of this and have been since they implemented this process. I don't think there's a better way other than AUTO LAND! The point is to CEASE FLYING ASAP! Allowing the Op to fly around willy nilly trying to get back to home does not meet this criteria. There are way too many variables to allow that IMHO.

 

[kilomikebravo]

I brought up the MCAS cos I was just watching a local investigation about it yesterday, and they said the MCAS was not mentioned to any pilots during the initial training. Boeing said the 737 Max is so similar to the 737, it only required pilots to do a quick online training.

Ray: I reread the article and I was mistaken, even the US Carriers didn't mandate simulator training at first, they all just got an iPad version of the training.

However, aside from the problems with MCAS, ultimately the two aircraft crashed because the crew did not know how to disable the system and MOST importantly, did NOT disengage the autopilot. That one action would have saved both aircraft.

As a former Airbus driver, I can tell you with authority that when the aircraft starts doing something for which we don't know the reason, we turn off the system and in this case, that would have been the autopilot. We used to say all the time, "What's it doing now?"

 

[BigAl07]

Sorry gang but we can not allow blatant discussions about HOW to Hack and Disable the DJI GeoFencing. You can discuss doing it etc but we aren't going to allow discussing specifics on HOW to do it. That's not for this forum.

Any posts relating to this that we see will be removed promptly.

Thanks in advance for understanding and your full cooperation going forward.

Allen

 

[bkushner]

I'm not missing the point at all - your point is obvious, and your point is wrong. How did autolanding suddenly become dangerous - it's the default action on low battery and a user-selectable result of failsafe RTH. As for the risk of losing the aircraft - that wouldn't have happened either if the OP had been following any of the applicable laws. But he was over a mile away, out of VLOS, in a TFR, in surface Class B airspace on the extended center line of KPHL runway 08/26, over water, and he hadn't made any attempt to check NOTAMs and didn't understand how the geofencing system works.

Wow your jumping to a lot of conclusions.

 

[lolo780]

Horizontal control is maintained during M2 autolanding. I have tested this in a NFZ and one can easily land as long as you're high enough and not to far over water.

That's weird. Horizontal control isn't usually lost.

 

[Mossiback]

It seems to me that if DJI can give 20 seconds warning they could give more. A couple minutes may be all that is needed to find a safe place to land.

 

[lolo780]

The app knows how much battery life is remaining, so it would be simple to pop up a warning about an upcoming TFR even before lift off.

It seems to me that if DJI can give 20 seconds warning they could give more. A couple minutes may be all that is needed to find a safe place to land.

 

[ac0j]

Wow your jumping to a lot of conclusions.

you obviously are not familiar wit @sar104 , I am pretty sure he has hit the nail directly on the head. There was no doubt some serious research done before he typed that. He probably already knows your wifes maiden name and what kind of car you drive.