Is exceeding 400ft altitude as simple as changing max altitude in the app?

[aesculus]

Here is the one and only answer to this question every time it gets asked....

No.

When someone raises the issue on how this might be wrong, the answer is still....

No.

The only "purpose" asking this question time and time again accomplishes is the guarantee that no one will care about the OP 2 posts in and it will then move onto 10 pages of how high you can legally fly in the US.

YAWN.....

The OP got his question answered. If you find this boring, feel free to ignore the thread.

I'm not advocating breaking the rules. I'm in favor of using common sense. We're debating the wrong rule here.

This morning I was flying at home, which is flat and rural. I was out 13,000' at an altitude of 250' when a Cessna flew within a quarter mile of my house and clearly below 400'. I would guess he was about two to three times the height of my 85' cottonwood trees. Planes don't fly in my neighborhood much and I don't know what he was doing there so low to the ground, but there he was. This is a clear and common example of why an arbitrary altitude limit of 400' or 200' or 600' or whatever, does not mitigate the risk of accidental contact. Had I been in the area, I would have done everything I could to stay below and behind him. That's what mitigates risk. And that is why the FAA doesn't strenuously enforce 400'. The most important bullet point in that list is "Stay away from other aircraft at all times".

When a deadly air accident involving a drone eventually becomes front and center and precipitates the inevitable crippling laws and regulations that follow, it will be because some a**hat tried to play chicken with an airplane, not because a well-intentioned drone pilot strayed above the 400' limit that he was clearly told to obey by his fellow forum members.

 

[420fitter]

Umm, the 400' limit applies to everyone. It's explicitly dictated to you before you sign the agreement that gets you your registration number.

They're only safety guidelines for hobbyists.

 

[cobra46]

The OP got his question answered. If you find this boring, feel free to ignore the thread.

I'm not advocating breaking the rules. I'm in favor of using common sense. We're debating the wrong rule here.

This morning I was flying at home, which is flat and rural. I was out 13,000' at an altitude of 250' when a Cessna flew within a quarter mile of my house and clearly below 400'. I would guess he was about two to three times the height of my 85' cottonwood trees. Planes don't fly in my neighborhood much and I don't know what he was doing there so low to the ground, but there he was. This is a clear and common example of why an arbitrary altitude limit of 400' or 200' or 600' or whatever, does not mitigate the risk of accidental contact. Had I been in the area, I would have done everything I could to stay below and behind him. That's what mitigates risk. And that is why the FAA doesn't strenuously enforce 400'. The most important bullet point in that list is "Stay away from other aircraft at all times".

When a deadly air accident involving a drone eventually becomes front and center and precipitates the inevitable crippling laws and regulations that follow, it will be because some a**hat tried to play chicken with an airplane, not because a well-intentioned drone pilot strayed above the 400' limit that he was clearly told to obey by his fellow forum members.

I'm not familiar with your neighborhood but in sparsely populated areas planes can fly as low as they want provided they stay 500' away from vessels, people, vehicles and structures.

Over trees, I certainly would NOT fly that low because it's impossible to see what's under the trees. I have buzzed open water and farmland at 50 feet but you can see objects that must be avoided.

 

[BlakPhoenix]

The OP got his question answered. If you find this boring, feel free to ignore the thread.

I'm not advocating breaking the rules. I'm in favor of using common sense. We're debating the wrong rule here.

This morning I was flying at home, which is flat and rural. I was out 13,000' at an altitude of 250' when a Cessna flew within a quarter mile of my house and clearly below 400'. I would guess he was about two to three times the height of my 85' cottonwood trees. Planes don't fly in my neighborhood much and I don't know what he was doing there so low to the ground, but there he was. This is a clear and common example of why an arbitrary altitude limit of 400' or 200' or 600' or whatever, does not mitigate the risk of accidental contact. Had I been in the area, I would have done everything I could to stay below and behind him. That's what mitigates risk. And that is why the FAA doesn't strenuously enforce 400'. The most important bullet point in that list is "Stay away from other aircraft at all times".

When a deadly air accident involving a drone eventually becomes front and center and precipitates the inevitable crippling laws and regulations that follow, it will be because some a**hat tried to play chicken with an airplane, not because a well-intentioned drone pilot strayed above the 400' limit that he was clearly told to obey by his fellow forum members.

It's not just about playing chicken with aircraft, the higher you are the less situational awareness you have, just like flying at a distance. The sound of the aircraft will be delayed as well due to the distance so you will have less warning of it approaching. It's hard to judge distances and height when you're very far away, and even more so through the camera of the Mavic.

So the real question is, is it worth it to bend/break the rules for that shot?

 

[AlanTheBeast]

The only units that will display Imperial are your flight telemetry data. Settings remain metric. I agree; it's an annoyance that you would think could be easily fixed for us poor Americans

WARNING: RANT AHEAD.

Since the US signed the convention of the meter in about 1878 and not much later made it the PRIMARY LEGAL SYSTEM OF WEIGHTS AND MEASURES IN THE US[1], it behooves Americans to drop quaint old units like feet and gallons and all the rest and join the rest of the planet in sanity and most of the US military .[2].

[1] Being American Congress Critters having oodles of friends in trade with Britain, they added a clause allowing trade in Imperial (ish) units as well as metric. <sigh>.

[2] Aviation and Navy remain firmly attached to Knots, NM and even yards, alas.

YOU ARE EXITING THE RANT WARNING ZONE.

 

[theecrewchief]

I have flown a Cessna 500 feet over the ground in a rural area. That 400 feet rule is to give separation with aircraft. We have 3 pipelines that run through my property (drank well water here 30 years without any issues *cough standing rock cry babies*) and I have seen helicopters and cessnas "skud run" through extremely low to observe the route the pipe takes from the air.

 

[nomad33fw]

You are actually breaking the rules. To actually be flying with the hobby designation, in the US of course, you have to be no higher than 400ft agl. There is no exception.

Actually none these are LAWS they are guidelines with not penalties unless you're flying under part 107. Any penalty you incur would be for violation of a local jurisdiction laws. For example if you were flying at 350 feet in the path of the approach of a runway in I would arrest and charge you with culpable negligence FSS 784.05. On the way to jail I'd tell you how stupid you were and taking the chance on ruining something I enjoy. That said if I saw you out at a park, beach etc flying at a 1000 feet while keeping an eye out for aircraft I'd say "cool."

 

[Jim Flannery K0UNX]

Guys, you just have to use common sense, rather than hard and fast rules. I live in the Rocky Mountains, and even flying at 500 metres, I find that I'm way below the tops of the canyons. You have ATO (Above Take Off), AGL (Above Ground Level), and AAT (Above Average Terrain). If I take off from the top of the canyon, sometimes I'm flying at MINUS hundreds of feet, but am still higher than someone who takes off from the bottom of the canyon.

 

[geofox784]

Terribly wrong. As a hobbyist you are required to stay below 400 feet.
There really is no exception indicated for hobby fliers.

Darryl

Respectfully, you are the one who is terribly wrong. Flying above 400' is perfectly legal as long as you are flying under the section 336 exemption. However you are likely going to be the one legally responsible if you cause a collision.


In 2012 congress passed public law 112-95 Section 336 "Special rules for certain unmanned aircraft systems." See page 67. It states that as long as you are operating under the following rules, the FAA may NOT make any rules regarding said model aircraft:

- Operating recreationally. (So this does NOT apply to those operating commercially. Thus the FAA can makes rules... resulting in FAA part 107 which includes the 400' AGL requirement among other rules)
- Operated within a community based set of safety guidelines. (The AMA is the most common one. Their safety code only requires you fly under 400' AGL if you are within 3 miles of an airport.)
- Under 55 pounds
- Operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft
- When flow within 5 miles of an airport, notifies the airport of your plans (If the tower objects with a legitimate reason the FAA considers this endangering the NAS (National Airspace System) and thus you are breaking the law.)
- It is also noted in the definition of the "Model Aircraft" that it "...is flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft"

So in order for you to be exempt from any rulings of the FAA, you must be operating within those parameters. Essentially these are your rules. However this does not apply to airspace requirements that apply to all type of aircraft, such as TFR's (temporary flight restrictions).

The FAA has acknowledged section 336 in this statement. The document explains FAA's interpretation of the somewhat vague section 336. The only mention of 400' AGL in this document is a mention of a "recommended set of voluntary operating standards" listed in 1981 in the background explanation of the document. The document further clarifies each of the section 336 requirements, but does not interpret the law in such a way that requires the aircraft to stay under 400' AGL. Congress removed the authority of the FAA to do so.

I am not saying that you should just blow off the < 400' AGL guideline without being careful and flying within visual line of sight. That would be endangering the NAS which section 336 of course does not permit. And it would be stupid. What I am saying is that it is perfectly legal to fly as high as you want as long as you are maintaining line of sight, watching out of other aircraft, and not entering some kind of restricted airspace. If you are flying within visual line of sight you can easily hear low flying aircraft nearby and just drop altitude.

 

[geofox784]

Where did you read that 400 feet is not the legal limit for hobbyists? (At least in the US) Maybe you're talking about going higher than 400 feet (AGL) if above elevated structures?

See my above post explaining the legalities of flying above 400' AGL. Spoiler alert it's legal if you are flying recreationally.

 

[geofox784]

Umm, the 400' limit applies to everyone. It's explicitly dictated to you before you sign the agreement that gets you your registration number.

See my above post explaining the legalities of flying above 400' AGL. Spoiler alert it's legal if you are flying recreationally.

 

[RAW]

Sometimes 400 feet is too low if trees are disrupting your communication. If going a little above 400 feet will improve my signal, then I'm going to do it. The FAA never fined or reprimanded anyone for exceeding 400 feet without incident. If you intentionally fly your drone in the path of an oncoming manned aircraft, you are criminally liable, whether you were at 300' or 500' AGL.

My point is, if you're operating under Part 107 (commercially) then you are subject to its rules. If you are flying as a hobbyist, you are expected to use common sense to keep yourself and others out of trouble. This was in the email that I received immediately after registering. These are safety guidelines that spell out common sense points that should be on the mind of every drone pilot.

Remember these simple safety guidelines when
flying your unmanned aircraft:

• Don't be careless or reckless with your UAS
• Fly below 400 feet and remain clear of obstacles
• Stay away from other aircraft at all times
• Keep your UAS within your sight
• Don't fly near airports, stadiums, or other people
• Don't fly under the influence of drugs or alcohol
• Keep away from emergency responders

One young man was find $1,800 for not registering his drone by the FAA, so you fly as high as you can afford. Just don't cry if they catch you.

 

[geofox784]

One young man was find $1,800 for not registering his drone by the FAA, so you fly as high as you can afford. Just don't cry if they catch you.

The FAA has interpreted section 336 in such a way that they believe that the registration requirement is a "pre existing law" thus they have said they will require / enforce it. However the have NOT interpreted anything within section 336 to require you stay below 400' AGL. They can only recommend it.

 

[RAW]

Sounds like you're an attorney, that may come in handy. Fly safe not careless.

 

[geofox784]

Sounds like you're an attorney, that may come in handy. Fly safe not careless.

Nah I just like to research things a little excessively.

"Fly safe not careless." Can't agree with that any more.

 

[marcorasi1960]

My Mavic 2 (or the associated app) seems to have the 400' ruled hard-wired into it. When I get to 119 m altitude over my take-off point, it says I reached max altitude and it won't go any higher. That keeps me honest. Sometimes the temptation is there to get a peek at that special view from a few feet higher, and the sky is completely clear and there is nothing else in the air anywhere... but the app will keep me honest. I am surprised I have this 'feature' that nobody else is referring to. Maybe it's only in the last update of the app?

 

[Meta4]

My Mavic 2 (or the associated app) seems to have the 400' ruled hard-wired into it. When I get to 119 m altitude over my take-off point, it says I reached max altitude and it won't go any higher.

Your drone is has a hardwired limit of 500 metres (1640 ft).
It also has a user-configurable Max Altitude limit.
The default setting for the Max Altitude limit is 400 ft but you can change that any time you like.

 

[caspian]

Guys, you just have to use common sense, rather than hard and fast rules.

I had this discussion with a rather overentitled light aircraft pilot recently. his viewpoint was that full sized aircraft owned the sky no matter what, that there were plenty of reasons a light aircraft might be below 500' AGL even well outside terminal airspace even though it wasn't legal, and he didn't care about anything else.

I told him that while I had no wish to endanger the life of anyone on a light aircraft, separation rules were there for a reason, and if he expected me to adhere to 400' AGL max then I **** well expected him to maintain spacing and adhere to his 500' AGL min. I'll get out of the road of a full sized aircraft if I see one below my allowed altitude, but they will be the ones breaking the rules, not me.

I've got video of the top surfaces of the wings of several Cessnas that were taken while under to 400' AGL, and no there no vertical deviation issues from launch point. they were illegally low.

 

[Meta4]

that there were plenty of reasons a light aircraft might be below 500' AGL even well outside terminal airspace even though it wasn't legal

The idea that aircraft have to be above 500 ft is a common misconception.
There are plenty of situations where they can be encountered below 500 ft quite legally.
Here are the relevant rules:
§ 135.203 VFR: Minimum altitudes.
Except when necessary for takeoff and landing, no person may operate under VFR—
(a) An airplane—
(1) During the day, below 500 feet above the surface or less than 500 feet horizontally from any obstacle; or
(2) At night, at an altitude less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 5 miles from the course intended to be flown or, in designated mountainous terrain, less than 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 5 miles from the course intended to be flown; or
(b) A helicopter over a congested area at an altitude less than 300 feet above the surface.

Helicopters
Helicopters, unless they are flying under FAA Part 135 (carrying passengers commercially) has no minimum altitude under FAA Part 91. Even under FAA Part 135 the minimum altitude is 300' AGL.
FAR 91.119 (d) states Helicopters If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface - (1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA.

 

[caspian]

so that applies only to helicopters, not fixed wing aircraft, and in any case is from a regulatory organisation on the other side of the world from me.

my point remains. if light aircraft expect us to maintain separation, they should do the same.