Line of Sight - Really?

[dwolfe002]

It will be ADS-B or some similar tech.
DJI have already said future drones will have this, haven't they ?

Australia doesn't have mandatory ADS-B in all light aircraft, but if this automation is going to work, they will probably have to bring it in and retro fit all light manned aircraft, especially helis in urban areas.
Airfields be they controlled or uncontrolled will have some sort of airspace control, or rely on ADS-B.

Dji is supposed to be putting in ADS B in their drones. I was wondering if ADS B tells you anymore than the fact that an aircraft is in the area. Does anyone know?

 

[dwolfe002]

I recall that when I trained for my Private Pilot's License, we had 'designated' geographical low-flying areas. We used these areas a lot to practise 'forced-landings' in case of engine failure, as well as just simply flying low. If you have Pilot training facilities / Aero Clubs in your area, it would be a good idea to contact them and find out where those low flying areas are. I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to give you that info if they knew that you had their safety in mind.

This area is not used for practice. It's simply because the pilots want to fly low to see the beaches and boats.

 

[GadgetGuy]

Dji is supposed to be putting in ADS B in their drones. I was wondering if ADS B tells you anymore than the fact that an aircraft is in the area. Does anyone know?

Theoretically, as I understand it, it is should show you on the map where the aircraft is located and heading, and provide a warning dialog box of the changing proximity to the drone. I see it as more of an annoyance of false positives, that will distract the pilot, much like a car radar detector, which finds more false positives than real police radar. If it is a manned aircraft that is potentially a problem, you'll have already seen it and heard it. It won't help one bit if the aircraft has no ADS B (private aircraft are not yet required to have ADS B) or if it is another drone, and the feature may give new pilots a false sense of safety.

 

[WithTheBirds]

Dji is supposed to be putting in ADS B in their drones. I was wondering if ADS B tells you anymore than the fact that an aircraft is in the area. Does anyone know?

If you want to see an indication of what ADS-B provides have a look at Flightradar24.

 

[WithTheBirds]

Theoretically, as I understand it, it is should show you on the map where the aircraft is located and heading, and provide a warning dialog box of the changing proximity to the drone. I see it as more of an annoyance of false positives, that will distract the pilot, much like a car radar detector, which finds more false positives than real police radar. If it is a manned aircraft that is potentially a problem, you'll have already seen it and heard it. It won't help one bit if the aircraft has no ADS B (private aircraft are not yet required to have ADS B) or if it is another drone, and the feature may give new pilots a false sense of safety.

Couldn’t be as useless as a car radar detector- most police radar now are instant on so by the time you get painted it’s too late to throw the anchor out.

 

[dwolfe002]

Theoretically, as I understand it, it is should show you on the map where the aircraft is located and heading, and provide a warning dialog box of the changing proximity to the drone. I see it as more of an annoyance of false positives, that will distract the pilot, much like a car radar detector, which finds more false positives than real police radar. If it is a manned aircraft that is potentially a problem, you'll have already seen it and heard it. It won't help one bit if the aircraft has no ADS B (private aircraft are not yet required to have ADS B) or if it is another drone, and the feature may give new pilots a false sense of safety.

With all that time watching the screen you might also loose VLOS. Just sayin'. I hope it is better than that. Everyone will ignore it if it is full of false positives.

 

[GadgetGuy]

If you want to see an indication of what ADS-B provides have a look at Flightradar24.

Pretty useless for most private aircraft, most helicopters, and all military aircraft. Great for commercial airlines, but if you need to know where those are, you shouldn't be flying there in the first place, as you are likely in an NFZ!

 

[dwolfe002]

Pretty useless for most private aircraft, most helicopters, and all military aircraft. Great for commercial airlines, but if you need to know where those are, you shouldn't be flying there in the first place, as you are likely in an NFZ!

Well that's not good. That's everything around here that flies low except for commercial airlines. The military doesn't fly low too often but when they do you know it. The coast guard helicopters always fly low as do a lot private aircraft.

 

[GadgetGuy]

Couldn’t be as useless as a car radar detector- most police radar now are instant on so by the time you get painted it’s too late to throw the anchor out.

Good point. Crowd sourced info is the best means of determining the location of police radar, before the police turn it on. Never be the lead car! Theoretically, the radar detectors would be used to paint someone in front of you first, giving you time to throw out the anchor out, but I gave up on using one 20 years ago. Too distracting. Paying attention to the reactions of the other drivers around you is a far more useful in every way! Watch out for the drivers weaving in their lane, driving slower than everyone else. Texting and driving! Worse than drunk driving!

I see ADS-B for drones as more of a DJI marketing gimic than a real useful tool, much like TSA is to airline safety! Profiling would be far more effective! However, the public now feels safer, because everyone goes through TSA and has to arrive 2 hours before their flight to explain they packed their own bags!

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Whatever tech is used, and it will have to be there for autonomous drone systems of any worth safety wise and in a practical sense, it will likely have to be something totally automatic.
I think whatever is put into them will pick up ADS-B or a similar type of beacon signal, and react to avoid.

It's impractical to think that long term, a pikot in charge of an autonomous flight will be somewhere to react to something and and avoid airspace conflict, it might be that way in trials, but not practical for ongoing use . . . he might as well be driving that courier van or food delivery car.

I suppose look where vehicle tech has come in the the past few years, self driving vehicles will be the norm in a decade, it will be the same for autonomous aircraft.
Skidio 2 is a good example of how fast drone tech is moving too, but then obstacle avoidance is another big question mark on how good it has to be for autonomous flight after daylight hours end.

These things are far from perfect enough. Yet.
Some of us now won't see drones literally buzzing around dropping off lunches and parcels, but the next generation and beyond is likely going to.

 

[BigAl07]

Dji is supposed to be putting in ADS B in their drones. I was wondering if ADS B tells you anymore than the fact that an aircraft is in the area. Does anyone know?

Yes on the Enterprise level they do have some built-in ADS-B receivers. And they do work surprisingly well. Here's a video showing it in action but also take note of how much screen Real Estate and Operator Attention is now required for mere Conflict Avoidance. Note: The Text Balloons etc are for Demonstration only and not part of the program

Theoretically, as I understand it, it is should show you on the map where the aircraft is located and heading, and provide a warning dialog box of the changing proximity to the drone. I see it as more of an annoyance of false positives, that will distract the pilot, much like a car radar detector, which finds more false positives than real police radar. If it is a manned aircraft that is potentially a problem, you'll have already seen it and heard it. It won't help one bit if the aircraft has no ADS B (private aircraft are not yet required to have ADS B) or if it is another drone, and the feature may give new pilots a false sense of safety.

Very true but we have to start somewhere and that somewhere is here & now. Until every single aircraft (manned or otherwise) is transmitting & receiving it's just another tool in the bag that helps to add to Situational Awareness. On the flip side, I'd rather know of SOME of the aircraft in the area rather than none but also realize the picture I'm seeing is incomplete and to always keep my head on a swivel.

With all that time watching the screen you might also loose VLOS. Just sayin'. I hope it is better than that. Everyone will ignore it if it is full of false positives.

EXACTLY! The pilot gets overloaded very easily. Even on a trained and experienced sUAS crew the amount of information the pilot is juggling can be daunting. Adding this Live & Urgent data is only going to create Task Overload for the RPIC very quickly. This is where a 2-person crew is essential (and I'm not talking about the VO as that task is already maxed out). Have one person as RPIC and the other as "Data Observation Specialist" and have them co-located. One person watching DATA and RPIC doing nothing but flying the aircraft.

Pretty useless for most private aircraft, most helicopters, and all military aircraft. Great for commercial airlines, but if you need to know where those are, you shouldn't be flying there in the first place, as you are likely in an NFZ!

FlightRadar24 is more dangerous than useless because so many people are watching it and considering it to be:

a) LIVE up to the second (up to 5 MIN delay in some instances)
b) 100% coverage on all aircraft (only aircraft currently broadcasting and only accurate if there is an ADS-B receiver near YOUR exact location). If the Rx isn't near you then it's being "Estimated" and broadcast across the internet. Luckily ADS-B Rx are very common even at the hobby level now.

Well that's not good. That's everything around here that flies low except for commercial airlines. The military doesn't fly low too often but when they do you know it. The coast guard helicopters always fly low as do a lot private aircraft.

I don't know about where you are but here in the USA all military are operating ADS-B unless they are on some special training ops and those only take place in specific Military Observation/Training Route areas. Any other time they are operating ADS-B like any other non-private entity.

In the US it should get significantly better here in the next year as the ADS-B 2020 mandate goes into effect here. But there are some "caveats" we all need to keep in mind:

1. This only applies to aircraft flying in Airspace that currently requires a Transponder.Let's call this ADS-B 2020 Airspace for lack of a better term LOL. So it does NOT apply to many of the same area we will be flying in Rural America. Bush planes, sea planes, experimental aircraft, home built etc are very likely to be flying in these areas with no ADS-B.
2. There are times when an aircraft operating in Controlled Airspace will be operating w/o ADS-B out operational
   1. Maintenance Flights (equipment repair/testing scenarios)
   2. Ferry Flights from one repair/installation location to another
   3. When the ADS-B is malfunctioning
3. Much like our Part 107 Waiver process a manned aircraft pilot ( part 61 etc) can get authorization to fly in ADS-B 2020 airspace without ADS-B. It requires prior authorization via an online portal unless it's an In Flight failure. In that scenario, ATC can give an instant authorization to continue the flight as long as an Operational Transponder is functioning.

So even with all this new and fancy technology coming into play right now we will still have large (HUGE really) gaps in our coverage and until those are resolved I don't expect to see many allowances for BLOS operations especially for hobby/recreational operations.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Very true but we have to start somewhere and that somewhere is here & now. Until every single aircraft (manned or otherwise) is transmitting & receiving it's just another tool in the bag that helps to add to Situational Awareness. On the flip side, I'd rather know of SOME of the aircraft in the area rather than none but also realize the picture I'm seeing is incomplete and to always keep my head on a swivel.

Tech will be astounding soon, but yes it will move a little slowly to start, or there will probably be a bit of 2 steps forward, 1 step back for a while.

If just a heads up type of warning for PIC of consumer drones becomes available in the near future, hopefully there will / can be some sort of filter to show aircraft from say 500m and lower.
We don't need to know a light to mid size aircraft is flying at 1500m, or a commercial airliner at 9000m.

 

[BigAl07]

Tech will be astounding soon, but yes it will move a little slowly to start, or there will probably be a bit of 2 steps forward, 1 step back for a while.

If just a heads up type of warning for PIC of consumer drones becomes available in the near future, hopefully there will / can be some sort of filter to show aircraft from say 500m and lower.
We don't need to know a light to mid size aircraft is flying at 1500m, or a commercial airliner at 9000m.

Agreed. Much less "clutter" that way.

 

[dwolfe002]

Yes on the Enterprise level they do have some built-in ADS-B receivers. And they do work surprisingly well. Here's a video showing it in action but also take note of how much screen Real Estate and Operator Attention is now required for mere Conflict Avoidance. Note: The Text Balloons etc are for Demonstration only and not part of the program

Very true but we have to start somewhere and that somewhere is here & now. Until every single aircraft (manned or otherwise) is transmitting & receiving it's just another tool in the bag that helps to add to Situational Awareness. On the flip side, I'd rather know of SOME of the aircraft in the area rather than none but also realize the picture I'm seeing is incomplete and to always keep my head on a swivel.


EXACTLY! The pilot gets overloaded very easily. Even on a trained and experienced sUAS crew the amount of information the pilot is juggling can be daunting. Adding this Live & Urgent data is only going to create Task Overload for the RPIC very quickly. This is where a 2-person crew is essential (and I'm not talking about the VO as that task is already maxed out). Have one person as RPIC and the other as "Data Observation Specialist" and have them co-located. One person watching DATA and RPIC doing nothing but flying the aircraft.


FlightRadar24 is more dangerous than useless because so many people are watching it and considering it to be:

a) LIVE up to the second (up to 5 MIN delay in some instances)
b) 100% coverage on all aircraft (only aircraft currently broadcasting and only accurate if there is an ADS-B receiver near YOUR exact location). If the Rx isn't near you then it's being "Estimated" and broadcast across the internet. Luckily ADS-B Rx are very common even at the hobby level now.



I don't know about where you are but here in the USA all military are operating ADS-B unless they are on some special training ops and those only take place in specific Military Observation/Training Route areas. Any other time they are operating ADS-B like any other non-private entity.

In the US it should get significantly better here in the next year as the ADS-B 2020 mandate goes into effect here. But there are some "caveats" we all need to keep in mind:

1. This only applies to aircraft flying in Airspace that currently requires a Transponder.Let's call this ADS-B 2020 Airspace for lack of a better term LOL. So it does NOT apply to many of the same area we will be flying in Rural America. Bush planes, sea planes, experimental aircraft, home built etc are very likely to be flying in these areas with no ADS-B.
2. There are times when an aircraft operating in Controlled Airspace will be operating w/o ADS-B out operational
   1. Maintenance Flights (equipment repair/testing scenarios)
   2. Ferry Flights from one repair/installation location to another
   3. When the ADS-B is malfunctioning
3. Much like our Part 107 Waiver process a manned aircraft pilot ( part 61 etc) can get authorization to fly in ADS-B 2020 airspace without ADS-B. It requires prior authorization via an online portal unless it's an In Flight failure. In that scenario, ATC can give an instant authorization to continue the flight as long as an Operational Transponder is functioning.

So even with all this new and fancy technology coming into play right now we will still have large (HUGE really) gaps in our coverage and until those are resolved I don't expect to see many allowances for BLOS operations especially for hobby/recreational operations.

I can see where the screen could get real busy. One thing they could do but I'm sure they wouldn't, would be to allow users to select altitude ranges. That would clear up some of the noise. All in all I have to say I am impressed that it does give the basic altitude whether it is MSL or AGL. That along with the heading would clear up many possible problems. But still, at least in my area it will not do much good because the smaller planes are apparently not required to have it and they are by far the largest number of low fliers. I agree that BVLOS doesn't look like it will come around for recreational in my life time. I guess I should have asked Santa for something else!

 

[dronerdave]

I agree that BVLOS doesn't look like it will come around for recreational in my life time. I guess I should have asked Santa for something else!

I can see it now...Santa and a bunch of elves sitting around the fire up north looking at little phone screens while sending gifts around the world with small drones and the whole time flying BVLOS.

This thread has turned into a guessing game of what the future holds for delivery. Myself I doubt I will ever be able to afford the tech required to fly BVLOS not to mention passing tests to obtain the necessary credentials to do so.

 

[Bledsoe1qb]

Maybe this has already be presented, but just in case, here it is:

My Mavic 2Z has a body roughly 0.25 ft wide. This is the most visible part when flying away or toward the pilot. Now the accepted angular resolution of the human eye is about 1/60 degree or 0.000291 radian.
Calculations:
Distance X Angle (in radians) = Arc length
Distance X 0.000921 = 0.25 ft whence distance = 859 ft or 0.16 mile.

Now even if we up the angular resolution of your eye by a factor of 4, we get about .064 mile straight line.

Note: if the drone is at h=300 ft, the horizontal distance is 804 ft.

I challenge anyone to let someone fly your drone out somewhere randomly to a distance of, say 0.64 mile, while you keep your back turned and then you turn around and see the drone.

Who flies their Mavic 2 drone no farther than 1000 feet? As for myself, I have trouble seeing it four or five hundred feet away.

Agree 100% If that's all the further your going to fly why spend all that $ on a Mavic? Buy one of those cheap garbage drones? Take it to the max baby!!!

 

[Steve Gee]

Hi.. Newbie here.. a bit like stopping distances in a car...even with line of sight.. how do you know your drone is less than 50m from something?
These clearance distances are surely subjective?

 

[dronerdave]

Hi.. Newbie here.. a bit like stopping distances in a car...even with line of sight.. how do you know your drone is less than 50m from something?
These clearance distances are surely subjective?

Usually by maintaining a safe height visually above or around any obstacles as well as watching the video feed. I also look over the area I plan to fly at prior to putting my quad in the air checking for power lines or structure. If I plan to fly between obstacles I use a spotter when ever possible. So IMO some depends on what you want to capture and how you do it. If I'm looking for effect such as starting close to your subject and quickly moving away in reverse, I'll do a slow practice run if I'm worried something might go wrong. I keep my Mavic in visual line of sight along with monitoring the video feed for orientation but utilize all the stats especially the altitude and compass for a safer flight.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Hi.. Newbie here.. a bit like stopping distances in a car...even with line of sight.. how do you know your drone is less than 50m from something?
These clearance distances are surely subjective?

Distances do take a bit of getting used to.
Usually you think you are a lot closer to something than you really are.
Best to practice close in and get used to this, but normally due to the 'looks closer' thing you do tend to be overly cautious as a new pilot, which can be a good thing during the learning to fly / video / photograph phases.

If you have a model with the radar (all expect mini ?) then this will give you a heads up at (I think it is about) 7m to 8m ?
It on in the OA menu, it will come up automatically when approaching an obstacle.
Distances and max speeds (OA will assist at) apply to the various models of DJI drones.

As you pass something, if your drone has a rear sensor (Air and M2P ?) then a rear radar will also appear until the distance limit is passed.

Radar and OA might not (rarely) pick up fine things like twig / fine foilage, electrical / telephone wires, etc, as seen in so many videos here and online youtube etc.

If you use grid lines on the camera view, this is very helpful to place your drone to pass close to something, or through it, when the gimbal is pointing dead straight ahead.
I'm still getting the hang of this, but when the centre square is on the spot, and that is large enough to give safe flight, that should be where to aim for.
Again, practice at close range (and of course turn OA off), but leave this until much later in the learning curve I feel.

 

[Cheriwphoto]

Maybe this has already be presented, but just in case, here it is:

My Mavic 2Z has a body roughly 0.25 ft wide. This is the most visible part when flying away or toward the pilot. Now the accepted angular resolution of the human eye is about 1/60 degree or 0.000291 radian.
Calculations:
Distance X Angle (in radians) = Arc length
Distance X 0.000921 = 0.25 ft whence distance = 859 ft or 0.16 mile.

Now even if we up the angular resolution of your eye by a factor of 4, we get about .064 mile straight line.

Note: if the drone is at h=300 ft, the horizontal distance is 804 ft.

I challenge anyone to let someone fly your drone out somewhere randomly to a distance of, say 0.64 mile, while you keep your back turned and then you turn around and see the drone.

Who flies their Mavic 2 drone no farther than 1000 feet? As for myself, I have trouble seeing it four or five hundred feet away.

Hi. Have you tried adding the approved LED lights? Once you add those your visible range increases substantially and it d a huge help for those flying farms, infrastructure, and for cinematography reasons. Let’s not damage people’s livelihoods for no stated reason.