Mavic Pro-2 vs Zoom and P4P - Line Skipping + Sensor Heat?

[chunky]

I did see this a few days ago. It's funny,...it actually raises more questions than it answers. (it actually answers nothing....like "why" this was needed)

1.) Pixel binning IS EXACTLY in the category of "raw sub-sampling". Technically, so is line skipping. So DJI does admit that it is "sub-sampling" and that is why we see the artifacts of "sub-sampling". (Fro fun,....let's call it "DJI fancy binning"!)
2.) "Why" does FOV mode "REQUIRE" sub-sampling? (DJI Fancy Binning") Why?
3.) "How" is DJI's "raw sub-sampling" more "advanced" than simple pixel binning? The end result is IDENTICAL to "simple" sub sampling..i.e..pixel binning!
4.) DJI's "raw subsampling" is not visible on real scenes? (only on charts?) What?....total BS!! It's immediately visible to the naked eye.

They told us nothing with this. They say; "we do a special raw sub-sampling" (exactly what pixel binning is) but ours is somehow better and cant be noticed....even though the end result is no different than "simple" pixel binning and it is REQUIRED on the Mavic-2 Pro in FOV.

C'mon guys,...I love you, I really do!...but you cant dance around this. You just spoke about 3 paragraphs and said exactly NOTHING that we already haven't figured out before hand.

Cliff Totten

So it is, binning and skipping is really not the same (better SNR with binning) but resolutionwise it‘s the same and I also don‘t see „RAW subsampling“ is delivering anything close to the specified 4K resolution, it‘s hardly close to real 2.7K resolution!

DJI listen - I wait a bit until you bring us the M2P Platinum that can do full sensor readout. Then we will simply exchange the copters since I already paid for promised 4K resolution I din‘t get here!


In my eyes this all is a performance problem that may start with the sensor and maybe goes further to the SoC.
Maybe one ir even both are not powerful enough.
Maybe 8bit output helps, in my eyes this sensor is even not capable of delivering real 12 to 10bit output because of noise.

 

[Zukoota]

Guys. I bought a mavic 2 pro 2 days ago and was not overly impressed with the footage. The resolution looked crap! And now I come across this forum which seems to confirm my suspicion. My question is what should we do ?

1) Wait and hope that DJI solves the issue with a firmware update? ( a) that might not be possible b) they seemed to be digging in their heels with their latest responses. Even if they do offer a firmware update in the future - isn’t it better to purchase the drone at that time ?

2) complain to the shops where we bought the drones, as in, they do not perform as advertised. I know some shops had certain conditions on return or exchanges for this product but if enough of us exert pressure then they might be willing to deal with DJI on our behalf.

3) keep the drone for what it which is probably the best portable drone at the moment. Although I’ll say this, many of us specifically bought the pro over the zoom for image quality and the benefits of a 1 inch sensor which include better resolution! Or at least that is assumed by most of us anyway. Why the hell would I want to save and process 2.7K images at 4K levels of storage and processor requirements!

I think we need to work on this issue as a group as DJI will likely ignore individual complaints. We need to draft a template letter and begin to email DJI with that. And count me in on any class action lawsuits that can be generated from this issue.

Pissed off.

 

[chunky]

ma

The explanation seems reasonable and acceptable. How might you propose they might get to 4K frame width absent some form of interpolation (assuming the whole sensor is employed across the frame)?

Downsizing does increase detail (for a given area smaller than that prescribed by the native pixel dimension) but you loose sharoness. Interpolation causes a loss of contrast between adjoining pixels. This can and will be effectively recovered by applying an unsharp mask filter.

No more worrying about binning or overheating theories.

The only problem is there is NO down scale as described, they are just „interleaving“ - no, we had this, they‘re binning and that always gives up resolution instead of gaining it since debayering effects would become less visible through real downscale!

 

[WithTheBirds]

I think

So it proves I‘m more on the facts, seems you are still one way ;-)...
Nothing to struggle here, at least it doesn‘t matter where what ever happens, we only can count on the specs, not on any technique someone is using for what case ever...

No... i appreciate now you have been stirring for a while... you would have worked out early from a simple google that CMOS cannot do on sensor binning... is it so hard to admit your wrong about something?

 

[chunky]

Man, I really, really hate you! Hahaha! I've been fighting with people all day because of you. You've given all the DJI haters fuel to use in every YouTube video to come out since yours.

DJI never claimed you would get P4P video with the Mavic 2 Pro. It's like they marketed it as the folding P4P or something. They promised the M2P would be an improvement over the MP, it is. Not that it would as good or better than the P4P, it isn't. Besides, to say that they are hiding the fact is ridiculous, all of the specs are on the website for all to see. If you place them next to the P4P specs, they aren't the same.

As far as the accusation that DJI hyped the drone beyond what it would deliver. Nah that was YouTube reviewers. A day couldn't go by without one or two of them blathering on about how awesome the M2P was going to be. DJI had their release, went over the specs but I never heard him once claim that it was as good as the P4P. That was the YouTube hype train promoting that idea.

I must have missed the video complaining that the Spark uses the same sensor as the Pro, why doesn't it shoot in 4k?

I'm just waiting for Bo to do a review. If he says the camera is trash, then fine I'll throw the thing away and go out and buy an Evo and be done with it.

You are wrong in one point - DJI specified the video to 4K RESOLUTION - not imagesize and that‘s the point!! They don‘t reach 4K resolution by far since the image is won by binning means getting 2x2 pixels for one!
See the specs, the faqs about FullFOV and the manual regarding FullFOV - all state there is 4K videoresolution!!
That‘s the mistake DJI made here. For other products the spoke about „video format“ or „imagesize“ that would mean nothing.
VideoRSOLUTION is plain simple clear, it means we get 4K individual pixels not influenced by neighboring pixels.
That‘s even never possible in 5.5K downsampling nor 4:2:0 subsampling but it would look MUCH better and in luma we could even come close to real 4K as P4Pro proves.

You all should make screenshoots of DJIs specs (as long as these are unchanged) and confrontate them with this - that is the only way!

 

[Lon Denard]

You are wrong in one point - DJI specified the video to 4K RESOLUTION - not imagesize and that‘s the point!! They don‘t reach 4K resolution by far since the image is won by binning means getting 2x2 pixels for one!
See the specs, the faqs about FullFOV and the manual regarding FullFOV - all state there is 4K videoresolution!!
That‘s the mistake DJI made here. For other products the spoke about „video format“ or „imagesize“ that would mean nothing.
VideoRSOLUTION is plain simple clear, it means we get 4K individual pixels not influenced by neighboring pixels.
That‘s even never possible in 5.5K downsampling nor 4:2:0 subsampling but it would look MUCH better and in luma we could even come close to real 4K as P4Pro proves.

You all should make screenshoots of DJIs specs (as long as these are unchanged) and confrontate them with this - that is the only way!

You may not know this but is there a difference between using dlog or normal? My other problem is that the video shows 4k numbers in pixel count. I'm not a photographer but I see a definite improvement over my Mavic Pro.

 

[chunky]

I think

No... i appreciate now you have been stirring for a while... you would have worked out early from a simple google that CMOS cannot do on sensor binning... is it so hard to admit your wrong about something?

I already explained you how this is done - with simple CMOS switches between pixels but you are still one way.
Any idea how Sony does the Exmor RS, guy?? Reading the whole sensor with 960fps to the SoC... Really ;-) ;-) ;-)???

I‘m engineer, going with the time and knowing actual technique - but my reputation also doesn‘t prove anything here.

This all doesn‘t prove anything so we can really stop now about this BINNING question!
Sony states binning in their wording in context with Exmor CMOS - that‘s it! We don‘t have detailed specs about a possible used IMX183xxx so we can only rely on the other spec „text“ where binning is refered. Again, it‘s not about binning, adding or DJI fancy RAW subsampling or anything else how the sensor is magically read.

It‘s all only about the specs that DJI doesn‘t fulfill here! The specs are the only thing we can count on to be fulfilled!

 

[chunky]

You may not know this but is there a difference between using dlog or normal? My other problem is that the video shows 4k numbers in pixel count. I'm not a photographer but I see a definite improvement over my Mavic Pro.

I didn‘t test this yet.
Video pixelcount (image size) is not the same as video resolution (differenciate image information).
nK video-/imageresolution means any pixel in the image can assume an individual state not affected by surrounding pixels (like in synthetic graphics without anti aliasing or something else).
This is hardly possible in any (debayered-)discrete image but it‘s in the specs, so DJI should do what is technically possible to achieve and the P4pro proved that much better!!

 

[Zukoota]

Could this be a battery related issue ? Question to the experts out there.

 

[WithTheBirds]

I already explained you how this is done - with simple CMOS switches between pixels but you are still one way.
Any idea how Sony does the Exmor RS, guy?? Reading the whole sensor with 960fps to the SoC... Really ;-) ;-) ;-)???

I‘m engineer, going with the time and knowing actual technique - but my reputation also doesn‘t prove anything here.

This all doesn‘t prove anything so we can really stop now about this BINNING question!
Sony states binning in their wording in context with Exmor CMOS - that‘s it! We don‘t have detailed specs about a possible used IMX183xxx so we can only rely on the other spec „text“ where binning is refered. Again, it‘s not about binning, adding or DJI fancy RAW subsampling or anything else how the sensor is magically read.

It‘s all only about the specs that DJI doesn‘t fulfill here! The specs are the only thing we can count on to be fulfilled!

I’m genuinely disappointed now. As an engineer I thought you might absorb what I was saying and be prepared to entertain a discussion. Please familiarise yourself with how a CCD sensor works if and when you have time. The term bin, with respect to the subject discussion, was originally coined to describe an area of stored charge on the surface of a CCD. It is a different operation with CCD (as opposed to CMOS).

 

[chunky]

I’m genuinely disappointed now. As an engineer I thought you might absorb what I was saying and be prepared to entertain a discussion. Please familiarise yourself with how a CCD sensor works if and when you have time. The term bin, with respect to the subject discussion, was originally coined to describe an area of stored charge on the surface of a CCD. It is a different operation with CCD (as opposed to CMOS).

It‘s always my aim to help the weaker and prevent wrong information being spread, so that‘s the reason why „we“ are still talking.
I well know the function of CCDs even if it‘s nearly „past perfect“ these days.
A denotation is not stuck to one technology only because it was used with it before with another technology.
There is no logic on sensors??
Again, have a look at Exmor „RS“ ;-)!!

But again, I think we‘re done with binning or not binning or adding lines and so on now.
It doesn‘t matter „why“ we get this bad quality.
DJI can do this in the way they’re lucky about...
...AS LONG AS THEIR PRODUCTS FULFILL THE PROMISED SPECS!!!

If DJI thinks they‘re fine with their current solution/technology prove us that the FFOV mode delivers the described „4K resolution“, show us at least it performs as good as the P4pro does (that even doesn’t deliver „real“ 4K resolution)!

This is the point what we should ask or demand DJI to fulfill.

 

[sar104]

I did see this a few days ago. It's funny,...it actually raises more questions than it answers. (it actually answers nothing....like "why" this was needed)

1.) Pixel binning IS EXACTLY in the category of "raw sub-sampling". Technically, so is line skipping. So DJI does admit that it is "sub-sampling" and that is why we see the artifacts of "sub-sampling". (Fro fun,....let's call it "DJI fancy binning"!)
2.) "Why" does FOV mode "REQUIRE" sub-sampling? (DJI Fancy Binning") Why?
3.) "How" is DJI's "raw sub-sampling" more "advanced" than simple pixel binning? The end result is IDENTICAL to "simple" sub sampling..i.e..pixel binning!
4.) DJI's "raw subsampling" is not visible on real scenes? (only on charts?) What?....total BS!! It's immediately visible to the naked eye.

They told us nothing with this. They say; "we do a special raw sub-sampling" (exactly what pixel binning is) but ours is somehow better and cant be noticed....even though the end result is no different than "simple" pixel binning and it is REQUIRED on the Mavic-2 Pro in FOV.

C'mon guys,...I love you, I really do!...but you cant dance around this. You just spoke about 3 paragraphs and said exactly NOTHING that we already haven't figured out before hand.

Cliff Totten

So in that response they appear to be claiming that, in FOV mode, the full sensor is read and then downsampled to 4k. That appears to be in direct contradiction to the line-skipping observations. I've probably not been following all the discussions closely enough - is the line-skipping hypothesis directly confirmed, or is it based just on resolution observations?

 

[Fireblade]

I'm worried for your safety Cliff, DJI might send an assassin if you keep your video up lol. Or have they bribed you yet to take it down? LOL

 

[dwallersv]

I think

No... i appreciate now you have been stirring for a while... you would have worked out early from a simple google that CMOS cannot do on sensor binning... is it so hard to admit your wrong about something?

you both are making really valuable contributions, on topic, to the discussion. It's very welcome.

Now, would one of you please demonstrate that you are actually an adult, and not a psychologically underdeveloped adolescent, and please walk away from this pointless, stupid manhood-size comparison you're both chest-beating about?

Think about how you come across to the rest of us. Trumplike.

 

[Lon Denard]

I didn‘t test this yet.
Video pixelcount (image size) is not the same as video resolution (differenciate image information).
nK video-/imageresolution means any pixel in the image can assume an individual state not affected by surrounding pixels (like in synthetic graphics without anti aliasing or something else).
This is hardly possible in any (debayered-)discrete image but it‘s in the specs, so DJI should do what is technically possible to achieve and the P4pro proved that much better!!

I didn‘t test this yet.
Video pixelcount (image size) is not the same as video resolution (differenciate image information).
nK video-/imageresolution means any pixel in the image can assume an individual state not affected by surrounding pixels (like in synthetic graphics without anti aliasing or something else).
This is hardly possible in any (debayered-)discrete image but it‘s in the specs, so DJI should do what is technically possible to achieve and the P4pro proved that much better!!

It seems like there's several debates,

1. Should the video quality be as good as the P4P?

2. Does DJI "owe" us P4P video quality on the M2P?

3. Is the video coming from the M2P 4k?

4. Is this even an issue and if so, can it be improved?

Here's what I think,

1. No. The P4P is the P4P and the M2P is the M2P.

2. No. They never said that the M2P camera was as good as the P4P camera, the video from the P4P is better. YouTube created that hype, not DJI.

3. I'm not sure. When I pull an individual frame, it's 3840x2160. Isn't that 4k by definition? I defer to the experts on this one though.

4. Yes but there are always compromises in engineering. Always. I don't think DJI engineers are gods or whatever but I'm pretty sure everything they did was for a reason and changing it would be problematic elsewhere in the system. If we're going about using the entire sensor, we may as well go back to complaining that outs not actually a one inch sensor in the first place.

 

[Lon Denard]

you both are making really valuable contributions, on topic, to the discussion. It's very welcome.

Now, would one of you please demonstrate that you are actually an adult, and not a psychologically underdeveloped adolescent, and please walk away from this pointless, stupid manhood-size comparison you're both chest-beating about?

Think about how you come across to the rest of us. Trumplike.

Sigh...can there be no sanctuary from people insulting our president? Maybe they are acting like sanctimonious know it alls, very Obama-like?

 

[sar104]

It seems like there's several debates,

1. Should the video quality be as good as the P4P?

2. Does DJI "owe" us P4P video quality on the M2P?

3. Is the video coming from the M2P 4k?

4. Is this even an issue and if so, can it be improved?

Here's what I think,

1. No. The P4P is the P4P and the M2P is the M2P.

2. No. They never said that the M2P camera was as good as the P4P camera, the video from the P4P is better. YouTube created that hype, not DJI.

3. I'm not sure. When I pull an individual frame, it's 3840x2160. Isn't that 4k by definition? I defer to the experts on this one though.

4. Yes but there are always compromises in engineering. Always. I don't think DJI engineers are gods or whatever but I'm pretty sure everything they did was for a reason and changing it would be problematic elsewhere in the system. If we're going about using the entire sensor, we may as well go back to complaining that outs not actually a one inch sensor in the first place.

"3. I'm not sure. When I pull an individual frame, it's 3840x2160. Isn't that 4k by definition? I defer to the experts on this one though."​

The final size is 4k but I think the question is whether those 4k pixels were downsampled from the full sensor 5.5k size, or whether the sensor was not read at 5.5k, and actually read at less than 4k by line-skipping, and then interpolated back up to 4k, which would not be true 4k resolution.

 

[sar104]

Sigh...can there be no sanctuary from people insulting our president? Maybe they are acting like sanctimonious know it alls, very Obama-like?

Public figures are fair game, and always have been. There seems to be unusually high sensitivity to comments about the current president. I wonder why?

 

[Lon Denard]

"3. I'm not sure. When I pull an individual frame, it's 3840x2160. Isn't that 4k by definition? I defer to the experts on this one though."​

The final size is 4k but I think the question is whether those 4k pixels were downsampled from the full sensor 5.5k size, or whether the sensor was not read at 5.5k, and actually read at less than 4k by line-skipping, and then interpolated back up to 4k, which would not be true 4k resolution.

Oh... Is that what they were on about this whole time? Geez, thanks, now I get it. DJI said it was downsized and these guys say it was "upsized" for lack of a better term. Fine. Prove it's true and pass me a pitch fork.

 

[Lon Denard]

Public figures are fair game, and always have been. There seems to be unusually high sensitivity to comments about the current president. I wonder why?

"Sensitivity"? It's an every day, all day thing now. They've attacked his children, his weight, his skin color, his family, etc. None of that would have been allowed during Obama. Definitely not if Hilary would have won.

I don't like him as a person, but my bank account says he's doing a decent job. I just get tired of EVERYTHING being referenced to him. What does Donald Trump have to do with this discussion or their behavior?