Mavic Pro-2 vs Zoom and P4P - Line Skipping + Sensor Heat?

[sar104]

Guys....I have been saying this and warning DJI about this: Sony fabs these sensor but they never, EVER market them as a "1inch' sensor. Sony legal department makes them call it a "1 inch-TYPE" sensor. Its size is based on vacume tube circuit measurements...not 1inch on a ruler. DJI marketing is not smart enough to follow Sony's lead and they keep saying its a 1 inch sensor on all DJI marketing! They are misleading their customers. They need to follow Sony and say "1 inch-TYPE" sensor. I have said this over and over and DJI is going to get busted if they dont listen!

I'm pretty sure that no one thinks that the 1"-type sensors are 1" in any dimension. It does seem like a misleading name but not to anyone remotely familiar with compact camera formats or UAV camera systems.

 

[BlueBay]

It's only a matter of time before someone seriously challenges this issue.

Consumer protection laws are fairly advanced these days in most countries. There is something fundamentally concerning regarding the perceived video resolution that everyone was expecting from the M2P with the 1 inch sensor and the actual resolution that's produced. It's not just the cost of the drone that's being questioned, but the consequential loss of time & effort associated with buying and using a drone that we were told (and believed on good faith) made full use of the 1 inch sensor resolution for both video and stills - that's the whole point of the M2P for most people.

No doubt the expected firmware update is more important than it's ever been!

I'm also concerned that DJI has not yet replied formally regarding this issue. They've known about this for a while now.

If there is a reasonable explanation then great! Or if they plan to fix it, then I'd be more than happy to wait a reasonable amount of time. But this really is beginning to feel like a rushed product release with a lot of concerns regarding the initial marketing language & claims.

 

[Zukoota]

I asked them over the telephone if they have had any other complaints about the image quality from the mavic 2 pro and they said No, I was the first to call. I find that hard to believe. I guess there isn't enough noise yet and theres plenty of people watching the mainstream review sites which are all raving about the drone.

 

[Lon Denard]

I'm sorry, but I could not resist.... why are you so butt-hurt with this threat? If you bluntly deny all the facts provided to you and get political (last resort to be considered, better yet avoided on a public platform) why would you not roam in other topics with all other happy owners of this product, and discuss all the greatness and pray to gods!? Why not simply ignore this topic instead of trying to prove everyone wrong, the contributors and the owners who simply demand what they have a right for!? Seriously? You can create your own thread and talk DJI's blessing and politics at the same time and I am pretty sure none of these guys would ever interfere. Your contribution would have been much more valuable if you would prove your point argumentatively, by providing your own test results for example, and not your subjective opinion with a pinch of insult.

- you can't be serious on that! over-sharpened 8bit footage? We are talking barely 2.7k real resolution in a 4k package - not sharpening... You can always soften a good quality image to create that film-like effect, but you can never extract more details out of a soft image.

Yea I didn't "get political", it was in response to someone else. 99% of this thread is OPINION. There's only one person that has commented that has done any "testing" and that has been questioned by an expert with little or no response. To to it off, you quote a comment I made asking an honest question. How do they know how the Anafi down scales it's video? All sensors over 8mp down scale to 4k, that's not an opinion.

Is this not a discussion forum? You present one side of a debate and I oppose it? Some agree with me, some with you. Or is the new rules that you post a thread and only those that agree with you are allowed to comment?

I'm not "butthurt", I actually own a M2P and an very happy with it. Do you own one? If not, perhaps I'm not the one that doesn't belong here?

I like to argue, debate, discuss, etc different topics. If I didn't I wouldn't be on a forum.

The main argument here seems to be that the M2P video isn't as good as the P4P. There are those that seem to believe that DJI promised that it would be. There are those that believe it can be. I am none if those. I've had this information for weeks. It's not "news", it wasn't some unknown situation that some guy discovered in his basement. There were videos explaining this and breaking it down. DJI explained their methods on the forum. There are astonishing videos from this drone out there but you guys are focused on any tidbit of dirt that you can rub in DJI's face.

I debate this stuff for entertainment. There's no reason for me to care what any of you think about what I've purchased. It never ceases to amuse me how many people that buy DJI products hate them!

 

[0Kajuna0]

1/2.3 is about 4x smaller (25% of 1" sensor). 1.4x crop means about 70% of sensor is used. So its still considerably bigger area.

1/2.3 is about 4x smaller if you're talking AREA size. 1.4x crop refers to 1 dimension, which would equate to a 1/1.96 sensor (my math could be wrong, someone backs this?). Still larger than 1/2.3 but not by much. The pixel size is still very much preferable as the Zoom packs 12mp in that area while the Pro matches the 8mp necessary for 4K.

On another note, if the problem with FOV was heat dispersion, I'd be happy with a HQFOV mode that allowed to film with full sensor readout for 5 minutes, even less. My good shots never last more than a few seconds, maybe a minute.

 

[Lon Denard]

Is it true that in FOV mode, I would actually get better result in Zoom? I was actually missing the zoom feature when I got the pro, now should I return the pro and get the zoom? This will really make it easier for me. I am 90% video and 10% still. I am getting the Pro because of the 10 bit D-log M mode. However, I am not sure if my untrained eyes will really detect 10 bit and 8 bit, or is it a big difference? I am upgrading my computer because of this drone, so my 10 bit D-log is sitting there unedited until my new rig got put together. But I only have 3 days to return it for the Zoom. Please advise!

Return it!

 

[Lon Denard]

Maybe he got money for this. This is much cheaper than replace all pro 2 cameras.

Maybe Cliff and the other YouTube guys that are against this drone were paid by Autel? Seriously guys, anyone that posts something positive is on the payroll and anyone that posts something negative is a champion of justice? So Cliff is a better expert than Phillip? Well, if he would have come out against the M2P then he'd be the most honest reviewer ever! Sigh.

I actually don't care what Phillip says or Cliff, I've gotten some tasty clips and some awesome range and flight time.

 

[czhoume]

1/2.3 is about 4x smaller if you're talking AREA size. 1.4x crop refers to 1 dimension, which would equate to a 1/1.96 sensor (my math could be wrong, someone backs this?). Still larger than 1/2.3 but not by much. The pixel size is still very much preferable as the Zoom packs 12mp in that area while the Pro matches the 8mp necessary for 4K.

On another note, if the problem with FOV was heat dispersion, I'd be happy with a HQFOV mode that allowed to film with full sensor readout for 5 minutes, even less. My good shots never last more than a few seconds, maybe a minute.

When you say "The pixel size is still very much preferable", you mean it is better to be 8mp in that area instead of 12mp, is that correct? So still Pro is better than Zoom in this case? If that's the case, I will be fine with HQ all the time since I will be shooting 48mm most of the time if I decided to get the zoom.

 

[czhoume]

Return it!

Yes, the RMA and return label is on the way. But I am trying to make one last round comparison, that is if there is any gain for me in Zoom other than the price difference and the 8mm focal length.

 

[Lon Denard]

here is great explanation how big 1" sensor in reality is

Bo is my go to! I couldn't care less what anyone else says.

 

[Lon Denard]

Yes, the RMA and return label is on the way. But I am trying to make one last round comparison, that is if there is any gain for me in Zoom other than the price difference and the 8mm focal length.

When in doubt return it. If nothing else, you can use DJI's upgrade program later if you want.

 

[Lon Denard]

When you say "The pixel size is still very much preferable", you mean it is better to be 8mp in that area instead of 12mp, is that correct? So still Pro is better than Zoom in this case? If that's the case, I will be fine with HQ all the time since I will be shooting 48mm most of the time if I decided to get the zoom.

I do not want to talk you out of anything but this guy posted this video weeks ago explaining DJI's use of the sensor. I always fly in HQ mode, which is why I've never noticed any of this crap these guys are on about! Hahaha!

 

[Hiflyer808]

Well now I'm confused. I trust Philip Bloom and I liked his Pro 2 footage, hence my posts above. But I also trust Max Yureyev and his very thorough reviews, and his real-life tests indicate a camera that's substantially worse than the p4p's camera, even in hq mode, and only a little better than the Air's camera. Case is open again! I wish the Air had occusync and were quieter; Bloom and Yureyev both agree its image is better than the mp1's. Luckily I don't need to decide just yet..

 

[Bobnecat]

99% of this thread is OPINION

Some opinions are better kept to yourself or your close circle - yes I mean politics.

There's only one person that has commented that has done any "testing"

3 Persons at minimum - Cliff, Sockeye and Chunky.

and that has been questioned by an expert with little or no response

I might have missed something but who is the "expert"?

How do they know how the Anafi down scales it's video?

I don't think this is subject matter. No one is testing/discussing Anafi here.

The main argument here seems to be that the M2P video isn't as good as the P4P.

The main argument is BAD quality in 4k FOV mode M2P is delivering - please refer to post #1. P4P (2 year old drone) is taken as a benchmark, an example here, so is GoPro cameras and Autel - they all deliver more detailed images at 4k at larger field of view during day time, which is 90% of time most will be using this drone(my subjective opinion on the 90%).

Is this not a discussion forum? You present one side of a debate and I oppose it? Some agree with me, some with you. Or is the new rules that you post a thread and only those that agree with you are allowed to comment?

I'm not "butthurt", I actually own a M2P and an very happy with it. Do you own one? If not, perhaps I'm not the one that doesn't belong here?

Seems kind off self contradictory. I express my opinion, which is if you are totally happy with it maybe you should hang out in other threads.

There are astonishing videos from this drone out there but you guys are focused on any tidbit of dirt that you can rub in DJI's face.

The intent here, if you did not get it, is to hold DJI accountable for something they did not deliver but advertised - that is 4k resolution (Hasselblad iconic image quality), not to trash down DJI. Who knows, maybe they will finally admit and resolve this issue and YOU will get to benefit from questions being asked in this thread.

It never ceases to amuse me how many people that buy DJI products hate them!

Please refer to the statement above.

 

[0Kajuna0]

When you say "The pixel size is still very much preferable", you mean it is better to be 8mp in that area instead of 12mp, is that correct? So still Pro is better than Zoom in this case? If that's the case, I will be fine with HQ all the time since I will be shooting 48mm most of the time if I decided to get the zoom.

On paper, yes. Fewer pixels in a larger area means larger pixels, which means better signal to noise ratio, dynamic range and less chances of dodgy things like line skipping. In practice the HQ mode still looks slightly softer than it should to me. That, I can't explain.

 

[Hiflyer808]

Now I am more confused than ever. In the comments section of Max Yureyev's video, he said he liked Philip Bloom and seemed to tone down some of his criticisms of the Pro 2. Also some criticisms of his techniques and conclusions seemed valid. For example he might not have controlled the aperture, and clips shot at f11 are bound to look soft. Also, the Pro 2 may apply less sharpening by default, and to some extent what can look like more detail can really be just a higher level of sharpening. Bottom line so far is that to get the most out of the Pro 2 you need to be careful with settings and what you do in post. If you do that, as Philip Bloom seems to have done, you can get some really good images, especially with regard to color, noise in low light, and dr. The Pro 2 is now looking better to me than when I first saw Max's video, but yeah, it's a shame about the full fov.

 

[supergimp]

FWIW, DroneDJ just published DJI's response to the issue. A tiny bit of information amidst corporate speak. I'm happy with my M2P for the record.

Mavic 2 Pro uses pixel binning or line skipping? Here's DJI's official answer - DroneDJ

“Mavic 2 Pro uses a different processor than P4P and has two 4K modes, as stated on the product page, which are FOV mode and HQ mode. FOV mode has a wider view but less details than HQ mode. FOV mode’s image processing requires raw subsampling, which scales 5.5K raw into 4K raw before feeding it to the image processing pipeline.
Raw subsampling is different from line skipping; it uses the full area (of the 16:9 portion) of the image sensor so the signal-noise-ratio is much better than line skipping. Raw subsampling is also different from pixel binning. It is an optimized filtering & sampling process which is much more advanced than the simple average mechanism of pixel binning. Raw subsampling causes some loss in the finest details. However, this is not as visible in real scenes (like aerial filming) as it is on charts.
DJI looked into many solutions for implementing FOV and found that the current FOV mode is the best compromise for the Mavic 2 hardware. Please remember the Mavic 2 is an extremely complex and compact piece of hardware. The current solution represents the best possible way to enable filming using the full 1” sensor wide angle area FOV on the Mavic 2 hardware.”

 

[Cliff_622]

Hey guys,...let's all be SUPER honest here. This entire topic is literally 100% purely subjective. One man can call an image pure Hell, and another can call that same image pure Heaven! We are all just giving our own B.S opinions and nothing more.

If I say my GoPro Hero 3 puts out the BEST image I have even seen and will ever see in my life. How can people say my opinion is "wrong"? Everybody pays attention to images in very VERY different ways. Some are causal viewers and might quickly say it's amazing, be satisfied and move on. Others might stare passionately into and image and study it deeply until they get satisfied..

My own wife tells me..

."Cliff,...why do you pay soooooo mutch attention to the things in your drone videos?"
"Cant you just fly, get your shot, watch it quickly and move on?"
"Why do you have to STUDY and analyze ALL the things in your video?"
"Why do you CARE soooo much about this stuff?"

My own wife tells me she cant even tell the difference between a DVD movie and a Blu-ray. And,...even if she DID see a difference,...she really just "doesn't give a darn anyway."

We are all like this to varying degrees!!! Some drone buyers are just like my wife. They dont have a passion for imagery...it's not in their DNA and that is FINE! However, I'm on the other side. I LOVE imagery and I'm very passionate about it. I love being WOW'd by it!

Yes,...I get it. we are all different and we all "care" in very different amounts. But this does NOT mean some are "right" and some are "wrong". It's just they way we are wired.

If you are happy with your Spark or Mavic or Phantom,...then just be happy and don't concern yourself with other people that are not happy with theirs and have a different opinion than you.

When people tell me their 1080 Spark is the best and all they will ever need?...I say: "You rock!,..I'm happy you found what you like". That's all I say to them.... even though the Spark is not good enough for "me".

Cliff Totten.

 

[gnirtS]

It's only a matter of time before someone seriously challenges this issue.

No they wont.

There is something fundamentally concerning regarding the perceived video resolution that everyone was expecting from the M2P with the 1 inch sensor and the actual resolution that's produced.

Again no they're not. DJI makes no misleading claims.

It's not just the cost of the drone that's being questioned, but the consequential loss of time & effort associated with buying and using a drone that we were told (and believed on good faith) made full use of the 1 inch sensor resolution for both video and stills - that's the whole point of the M2P for most people.

And as the engineer stated, it does use the full sensor.

I guess also you'll want legal action against Nikon and Canon who also provide 4k video from a crop of the sensor? Unlike DJI canon doesnt even provide a full FOV 4k mode.

The only people squealing about misleading claims are those that don't understand camera or sensor technology (and likely knew nothing of the video until finding click bait videos on youtube)

 

[sar104]

FWIW, DroneDJ just published DJI's response to the issue. A tiny bit of information amidst corporate speak. I'm happy with my M2P for the record.

Mavic 2 Pro uses pixel binning or line skipping? Here's DJI's official answer - DroneDJ

OK - that makes sense. It also explains the aliasing seen with the charts since the low-pass optical filter will not have been optimized for 4k across the entire sensor.