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Professional investigator concludes - "what's the fuss about?"

My position that people should be concerned with proper risk assessment and mitigation and not reacting to unproven premises, unfounded allegations and S.W.A.G.'s.
I think it's both reasonable and rational.
 
The one thing missing from all of this is an actual test of a mavic (or equivalent) flying into a turbine at 300mph.

I respect @lisadoc's expertise. As one with degrees in engineering and physics, and a 30 year career applying that knowlege, I'm more than highly sceptical that the above scenario would result in little or no damage. I would expect the turbine to be pretty much destroyed.

From an aviation safety standpoint, this is not catastrophic. Commercial aircraft have to shut engines down and fly with one less often enough that it's rarely news. However, that's not the point here.

The point those of us seeming to have greater concern than many of you is that objects like this in the sky capable of being sucked into an engine is a relatively new thing. Small, hard and dense objects in this weight range simply weren't present in the sky until now.

I find the assertions that objects like the Mavic presenting little risk to jet aircraft based on bird statistics to be every bit as unimpressive and unconvincing as the hysteria coming from the other direction of this issue. I want real data, with actual objects.

Like I said: Do a controlled test in a wind-tunnel sending a Mavic into a turbine at 300mph. Share the results. Do the same thing for the leading edge of a 767 wing. The cockpit window.

If there is no major damage, I'll be amazed.
 
The one thing missing from all of this is an actual test of a mavic (or equivalent) flying into a turbine at 300mph.

I respect @lisadoc's expertise. As one with degrees in engineering and physics, and a 30 year career applying that knowlege, I'm more than highly sceptical that the above scenario would result in little or no damage. I would expect the turbine to be pretty much destroyed.

From an aviation safety standpoint, this is not catastrophic. Commercial aircraft have to shut engines down and fly with one less often enough that it's rarely news. However, that's not the point here.

The point those of us seeming to have greater concern than many of you is that objects like this in the sky capable of being sucked into an engine is a relatively new thing. Small, hard and dense objects in this weight range simply weren't present in the sky until now.

I find the assertions that objects like the Mavic presenting little risk to jet aircraft based on bird statistics to be every bit as unimpressive and unconvincing as the hysteria coming from the other direction of this issue. I want real data, with actual objects.

Like I said: Do a controlled test in a wind-tunnel sending a Mavic into a turbine at 300mph. Share the results. Do the same thing for the leading edge of a 767 wing. The cockpit window.

If there is no major damage, I'll be amazed.

While planes can definitely shut down an engine, bad damage to turbine can destroy it and send shrapnel all over the place. And that can be catastrophic. Look at United Airlines 232 incident. Destroyed turbine cut hydraulic lines. Or American 191. Engine got ripped out, and resulted in slats not retracting properly.

Accidents are usually a combination of multiple things going wrong. More of those things we can avoid, the better. And if drone collides with an aircraft, even if there's zero damage (highly unlikely to have zero damage), damage to drone pilots will be serious. New regulations, fines, requirements, etc.

It's just not worth it.
 
If you have an example make it a *pertinent* example

On July 25, 2000, an Air France Flight 4590 departing Charles de Gaulle International Airport ran over a piece of titanium debris from a Continental DC-10, shredding a tire and slamming rubber debris into the plane’s fuel tank. The subsequent leak and fire caused the Concorde to crash, killing 100 passengers, nine crewmembers, and four people on the ground.

Exactly, and it kind of provides substance to my theory that the Canadian situation could have been parts falling off another plane.

Wait, you didn't know that a Mavic is as hard as a piece of titanium? Or that it weighs as much as a tire from a jet liner? You so dumb!
 
The one thing missing from all of this is an actual test of a mavic (or equivalent) flying into a turbine at 300mph.

I find the assertions that objects like the Mavic presenting little risk to jet aircraft based on bird statistics to be every bit as unimpressive and unconvincing as the hysteria coming from the other direction of this issue. I want real data, with actual objects.

Like I said: Do a controlled test in a wind-tunnel sending a Mavic into a turbine at 300mph. Share the results. Do the same thing for the leading edge of a 767 wing. The cockpit window.


If there is no major damage, I'll be amazed.

Two possibilities as to why this hasn't happened after drones have been flying for many years now:
1 - the safety people have concluded there isn't sufficient risk to test every engine out there at a a cost of millions.
2 - the manufacturers are sticking their heads in the sand hoping it won't come to testing many engines at a cost of millions.

I think there's a high probability for both possibilities.

That said it is a fact that modern passenger aircraft are designed to fly and land on as little as one engine and there's ALWAYS more than one engine. To worry about taking down a commercial aircraft you'd have to be willing to entertain at least two targeted drone strikes - on an aircraft equipped with two engines - and assume they would in fact take the engines out of commission. A 4 engine aircraft has even more redundancy. All aircraft are designed to contain and direct internal shrapnel away from the fuselage before someone claims the engine shrapnel is a factor. All engines are not tested to ensure that they can't be broken - they assuredly can. They are tested to establish a high probability of less than catastrophic failure and controlled destruction when they do. I'm quite sure that common commercial drone capable of being a threat have been examined and judgment passed. I would find it extraordinary if they haven't. This is risk mitigation at work.
 
And lest we forget, let's remember that Air France flight 4590 (Concord SST) was brought down by a 200 gm piece of fod on the runway. 4 gigantic engines on a big airliner and a piece of metal that weighed a fourth of what the Mavic weighs. Oh... But that's different, right? The point is, small objects can, and have, taken out jets.

Um I'm sure others are going to check you but I'm just going to ask, have we come to the point where we'll lie and modify the evidence just to prove our arguments?
 
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That is until an actual F-35 pilot and safety officer weighed in on the topic, then I was arguing with expert opinion on my side.

Man, safety experts are always the worst people to ask anything. Everything is always worse case scenario with these guys. That's how they justify their positions.
 
Probability is another thing altogether. There is no question that a UAV could hit an aircraft, any aircraft, and not bring it down. A lot depends on what gets impacted and so worst case is generally assumed - windshield, rotors, fan blades etc., But the probability naturally convolves the location of the impact and the outcome of the impact at that location. It is important, but if it is anything other than vanishingly small then it is going to be regarded as unacceptably high in the aviation world.

Probability...what is the probability that this would happen at all? Given the relative surface areas, normal altitudes, relative speeds, etc. Like I said, it was my job to shoot down aircraft and it's no where close to as easy as you must think it is. I ride a sport bike and it never ceases to amaze me how easy people think it is to make one crash.
 
You left out a third reason expensive tests like these haven't been performed yet, and in my opinion this is the likely reason: The density of private UAVs in the sky has been and still is so sparse, that regardless of the physical risk a Mavic may actually represent, statistically it's near zero that we're going to have a catastrophic accident.

The chance of this happening is so tiny it doesn't justify spending millions on testing. Yet.

Where are most MPs? The vast, vast, vast, vast majority are flying where there is no chance at all of a collision with a manned aircraft. The fraction of a percentage that are in a position to potentially have a collision are simply make it so unlikely that we (the world) haven't gotten unlucky yet.

There's a non-zero chance of a major meteor strike causing a major extinction event. In fact, it WILL happen. 100% certain.

I'm not worried, because the chance that it will happen in my lifetime is so tiny as to be ignored.

Drones hitting planes are in a similar statistical situation right now. This statistical phenomena is being mistakenly used by some as evidence that drones are not a physical threat to commercial aircraft. This is a faulty conclusion and faulty logic, as are the bird comparisons.

Auto collision tests performed by manufacturers demonstrate conclusively that hard, dense objects smashing together at speeds far below those we're talking about here undergo catastrophic destruction. Who here thinks a Mavic at 300mph wouldn't punch through the side of a minivan?
 
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That said it is a fact that modern passenger aircraft are designed to fly and land on as little as one engine and there's ALWAYS more than one engine.
This simply is not true. Grossly mistaken.
 
Yup... pertinent...Surprise! A 200 gm piece of metal did fatal damage to a jet. Who cares about the mechanics of the damage? We have people arguing that something as small as our Mavic just couldn't be a real threat.

A 200 gram chunk of TITANIUM dude! That's makes a difference. It shredded a tire that weighs over 200lbs! The chunks of the flew into the engine. Do you think a Mavic could do that? I'll bet you $10,000 right now that I could fly my Mavic into a car tire 10 times without causing any significant damage. Do we have a bet?
 
A 200 gram chunk of TITANIUM dude! That's makes a difference. It shredded a tire that weighs over 200lbs! The chunks of the flew into the engine. Do you think a Mavic could do that? I'll bet you $10,000 right now that I could fly my Mavic into a car tire 10 times without causing any significant damage. Do we have a bet?
I'll take that $10,000 bet with a simple modification: It has to fly into the tire in a wind tunnel at 300mph.

You arrange the test. For that kind of bet -- that I know I will win -- I'll fly anywhere in the US to be there to both watch, and accept cash payment from you immediately.
 
I respect @lisadoc's expertise. As one with degrees in engineering and physics, and a 30 year career applying that knowlege, I'm more than highly sceptical that the above scenario would result in little or no damage. I would expect the turbine to be pretty much destroyed.

To be clear, I didn't say that. Taking a Mavic, or a Phantom, or even a baseball, down the core would potentially cause significant damage to a modern jet engine. Taking a Mavic outside the core could potentially cause significant damage to fan blades, or only minor damage - it just depends. Either way, with most modern commercial aircraft, that damage would not likely be catastrophic (irrespective of the phase of flight), as it would/should be contained to that engine and most aircraft can fly/takeoff/land with only one engine available. Since drones don't tend to fly in large flocks, incidents like the "Miracle on the Hudson" are also not likely, since impacting multiple engines with a drone is virtually impossible.

However, the assumption that a strike involving a drone would necessarily involve an engine is misplaced. Let's take as our basis, the one other flying object impacting aircraft that we do have data for - birds. With all bird strikes, only 13% involve a strike with an engine. That leaves 87% impacting another component of the aircraft. Beyond that, some type of damage (minor or major) results only 30% of the time a strike occurs in an engine. This would assuredly be much higher for a drone in the engine. However, for the remainder of the components, damage occurs only approximately 8% of the time. And these figures (the percentages with damage) are likely significantly inflated, due to the fact that most strikes without damage go unreported. The FAA estimates that only 20% of all strikes are reported, meaning 80% of the strikes that occur never make the database. For other parts of the aircraft, this means that damage probably occurs in only roughly 1-2% of the strikes.

Even if you double or triple these figures(or heck, even multiple them by 100) for drones, the result means that an incident with a drone will likely not be significantly damaging. Coupled with the astonishing low rate of drone strikes per flight hour (of the drones, not the aircraft: see above), the overall risk of a drone striking a commercial airliner is exceedingly low.

Risk, as I noted previously, is probability times severity. Even if you assume an elevated severity measure for a drone strike (not one that I would make but for the sake of other's arguments, I will assume this), the other factor - probability - is vanishingly small. There are other risks that would also result in quite severe consequences (e.g. someone with a Stinger missile sitting just outside an airfield) with a much greater certainty and to a much higher severity degree, but we don't irrationally chase every potential risk out there.

I'm not suggesting that drone operators be allowed to do whatever they want, whenever they want. I think that most potential significant instances involving drones would be with "bad actors", who, despite regulation or law would not be stopped if they had ill intentions to act negatively to impact aviation. The question is, are we going to treat the voluntary guidelines currently in place that guide the remainder of the UAS community as sufficient or do we feel the need to impose significant restrictions on recreational (or even commercial) drone operators? It's a legitimate question worthy of debate, but it is also critical to not fall victim to the emotional or ill-informed arguments that are often proffered in this field, especially as it pertains to risk.
 
I find the assertions that objects like the Mavic presenting little risk to jet aircraft based on bird statistics to be every bit as unimpressive and unconvincing as the hysteria coming from the other direction of this issue. I want real data, with actual objects.

I presented you with that data. 1.5 million flight hours (likely far more than that though) of drones in the US alone from 2014-2016 with exactly zero confirmed incidents. Add in 2017 and that figure probably doubles for flight hours but adds in only one strike (and to a non-commercial aircraft). Those figures are real data and though based on some specific assumptions, likely far lower than the true numbers.
 
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I presented you with that data. 1.5 million flight hours (likely far more than that though) of drones in the US alone from 2014-2016 with exactly zero confirmed incidents. Add in 2017 and that figure probably doubles for flight hours but adds in only one strike (and to non-commercial aircraft). Those figures are real data and though based on some specific assumptions, likely far lower than the true numbers.

There were number of close calls. DJI pilots usually get bad rap for piloting drones carelessly. And if not for NFZs around major airports that cannot be unlocked, I would say that number of these incidents would increase. Combined with altitude limits and NFZs, your typical drone won't fly close to danger areas. This is, in large part, why there were no incidents yet.
 
I'll take that $10,000 bet with a simple modification: It has to fly into the tire in a wind tunnel at 300mph.

You arrange the test. For that kind of bet -- that I know I will win -- I'll fly anywhere in the US to be there to both watch, and accept cash payment from you immediately.
lol - to keep it apples to apples then you'd need an actual aircraft tire in said wind tunnel. You'd lose. Just a small amount of thinking would reveal that those tires support a multi-ton aircraft hitting the tarmac at pretty much those speeds.
 
You left out a third reason expensive tests like these haven't been performed yet, and in my opinion this is the likely reason: The density of private UAVs in the sky has been and still is so sparse, that regardless of the physical risk a Mavic may actually represent, statistically it's near zero that we're going to have a catastrophic accident.
The chance of this happening is so tiny it doesn't justify spending millions on testing. Yet.
Nope - I did say that.

There's a non-zero chance of a major meteor strike causing a major extinction event. In fact, it WILL happen. 100% certain.
I'm not worried, because the chance that it will happen in my lifetime is so tiny as to be ignored.
2028 bro - expected to fly with 18,000 miles of earth which is closer than many satellites. Margin for error puts it within possibility of an earth strike.

Drones hitting planes are in a similar statistical situation right now. This statistical phenomena is being mistakenly used by some as evidence that drones are not a physical threat to commercial aircraft.
No mistake - statistically speaking a drone strike is a very small likelihood thus they are an unlikely source of threat.

Auto collision tests performed by manufacturers demonstrate conclusively that hard, dense objects smashing together at speeds far below those we're talking about here undergo catastrophic destruction. Who here thinks a Mavic at 300mph wouldn't punch through the side of a minivan?
That's pretty much apples to oranges since the MP has a top speed of 40mph you need a vector sum of 300 the minivan would have to be traveling *sideways* at 260 mph. I would submit that's not happening in your lifetime. A more realistic scenario would be a head-on at a combined velocity of 140 mph tops. Now if it hits the windshield it's likely going thru - but it's not the same animal as a aircraft canopy or windscreen. Aircraft are designed *expecting* to hit things and survive. If the MP hit it square in the grill I suspect the vehicle would be disabled but you're not going to see the engine annihilated or even shoved back.
In the case of the Mavic weighing in at .75 kilos going at 140 mph (62 m/s) results in a whopping 1500 joules of energy or the equivalent of .325 grams of TNT. Yeah, that little. You can do the math too if you'd like.
In the case of an aircraft going 600 mph the lowly Mavic would possess 31104 joules of energy or the equivalent of almost 7 grams of TNT - less than the weight of a quarter and a dime.
 
This is a nice discussion on the subject.
Just to add my 2 cents and I don't claim to be any kind of aviation expert but from what I have seen of Jet engines close up and from news stories I have read about bird strikes etc. I have serious doubts that a small drone like a Mavic or phantom can bring down any form of aircraft. The only thing of any size that is metal in the Mavic is the small motors and heatsink.

I think it would do almost zero damage to a prop or a commercial jets turbine engines.

With that said there is still one problem. The Aircraft that is impacted is most likely going to be grounded and the engine is going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb. This will cost the airline hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Rob
 
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This is a nice discussion on the subject.
Just to add my 2 cents and I don't claim to be any kind of aviation expert but from what I have seen of Jet engines close up and from news stories I have read about bird strikes etc. I have serious doubts that a small drone like a Mavic or phantom can bring down any form of aircraft. The only thing of any size that is metal in the Mavic is the small motors and heatsink.

I think it would do almost zero damage to a prop or a commercial jets turbine engines.

With that said there is still one problem. The Aircraft that is impacted is most likely going to be grounded and the engine is going to be inspected with a fine tooth comb. This will cost the airline hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Rob
I doubt it will straight up destroy the aircraft. But losing an engine in a critical phase of flight can be bad.

It will definitely damage a prop or turbine blades. A bird strike killed two engines on US Airways 1549. And birds are soft tissue. Mavic has hard parts. So we are talking way past "it will be inspected" because turbine blades will be chipped at least or destroyed at most. And they will have to be replaced. Entire engine will be out of service while it's being checked for proper balancing, etc. Virginia Tech did a simulation of a drone hitting a turbofan, and a quarter of blades were destroyed by impact.

My flight instructor had a bird strike that made significant dent on his Bonanza's wing. Entire section of the wing had to be replaced.

On your typical airliner, anything hitting the air, has something that will be damaged. Nose has radar equipment. Windshield can be cracked. Wing, tail and stabilizer leading edges have deicing equipment. All of this will have to be checked and repaired. Downtime and repair costs alone can be passed to you.

So, you must be extremely unlucky if you bring down a plane with a drone. So, it's just not worth it.
 
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