will the FAA know if i fly over 400Ft?

[dwallersv]

How accurate? Well how accurately would you want to know altitude AGL - the errors in those two values will be the same.

Yeah, that's the discussion I was opening... how accurate do we need?

The ultrasonic rangers can handle anything below 30' thereabouts with exquisite accuracy (surface-dependent). So we don't need anything with greater accuracy than 30'. The cheapo long-range modules aren't there yet (around 150' accuracy IIRC at the state of the art), but it won't be long before they get down below 100'.

I think that, at altitude, being able to measure AGL to within 50-100' or so would be more than enough.

I'm sure I'm missing something that will blow that completely out of the water, but I can't think of it atm.

 

[dwallersv]

Providing that the 400 ft above that structure did not place you in controlled airspace

That would be true whether there was an altitude limit guideline or not. So I'm not seeing your point.

It is a Federal Aviation Regulations violation to fly in controlled airspace without permission. That applies to all aircraft, including sUAVs. It was a violation before the FAA issued guidelines recommending hobbyists stay under 400' AGL.

 

[MavPro75]

That would be true whether there was an altitude limit guideline or not. So I'm not seeing your point.

It is a Federal Aviation Regulations violation to fly in controlled airspace without permission. That applies to all aircraft, including sUAVs. It was a violation before the FAA issued guidelines recommending hobbyists stay under 400' AGL.

It was my understanding that flying in uncontrolled airspace above 400 ft was legal e.g (inspecting a tower) However, if that altitude placed you in "controlled" airspace without prior authorization, that would be illegal. That was my point. Please advise if I am incorrect. Thanks

 

[dwallersv]

Nothing wrong with what you said, it's just overcomplicated.

However you find yourself in controlled airspace, if you're there without notification to ATC and permission to fly, your in violation of FARs.

Doesn't matter what sort of aircraft you are, whether you were filming a birthday party or inspecting a tower.

400 feet doesn't come in to the issue at all. There is controlled airspace down to ground level, and if you're in it, you're in violation -- at 10 feet AGL.

 

[sar104]

It was my understanding that flying in uncontrolled airspace above 400 ft was legal e.g (inspecting a tower) However, if that altitude placed you in "controlled" airspace without prior authorization, that would be illegal. That was my point. Please advise if I am incorrect. Thanks

It depends on the nature of the flight. If we are talking about in the US, then you are referring to Part 107 regulations. The thread was originally discussing recreational flying under the Model Aircraft Special Rule, which has no hard altitude rule and nothing specific to say about controlled airspace other than the FAA interpretation that effectively bans recreational flight in Class B.

 

[sar104]

Yeah, that's the discussion I was opening... how accurate do we need?

The ultrasonic rangers can handle anything below 30' thereabouts with exquisite accuracy (surface-dependent). So we don't need anything with greater accuracy than 30'. The cheapo long-range modules aren't there yet (around 150' accuracy IIRC at the state of the art), but it won't be long before they get down below 100'.

I think that, at altitude, being able to measure AGL to within 50-100' or so would be more than enough.

I'm sure I'm missing something that will blow that completely out of the water, but I can't think of it atm.

GPS should give altitude MSL to within 20 m, especially in flight with 10+ satellites. Combined with a DEM that could reasonably give altitude AGL to the same accuracy. However - that is still altitude above the nominal ground level, not taking into account trees or structures.

 

[Jck]

I think the key is not if you legally can but should you? I know where I am at, I see aircraft all the time flying at what looks to be 500-700ft. Since legally they can be flying at 500ft, some might. They move very fast and for you to get out of the way, especially when you get over 400ft line of sight becomes more difficult, it is just not worth the risk. Think about it, if you hit an aircraft and actually cause that aircraft to be downed, is it really worth the lives you endangered? Also, if more people start going over the 400ft limit and shared airspace with airplanes and helicopters, new laws and restrictions will be put on us making it even harder to fly legally.

Grat answer.

 

[gnirtS]

Look, you're spreading disinformation.

"A small subset" is, quite simply, wildly inaccurate. While not all aircraft are tracked, in most urban locales, especially where there are major airports, it shows the vast majority of aircraft. Near ATCs, you can assume you're seeing just about all of them.

Actually you can't. There are some aircraft types, commercial and non commercial that won't broadcast it. In the last few hours ive had several ATRs and Saab340s fly over which don't broadcast it for example. GA/VFR traffic which is the stuff you are most likely to come into conflict with isn't shown. Glider traffic won't be shown.

FR24 uses the same radar and transponder data that the Air Traffic Control system uses, and is being used by Air Traffic Controllers to manage traffic. EVERY SINGLE AIRCRAFT IN AN ATC, regardless of how equipped, is tracked and displayed. Of course, anyone unidentified is not supposed to be there, but they're still on the radar.

You're making some massive and very inaccurate assumptions here. FR24 uses primarily an ADS-B data feed (and in some areas, basic MLAT). In the *USA* only it has a *delayed* FAA feed. This is minutes out of date (so many miles) and also doesn't exist on the rest of the planet where such data is not fed into it. A lot of the stuff on there is simple interpolated from various sources if lost so might not be where it says as well.

Only out in remote, rural locations, far from any controlled airspace and airports is there a significant risk of having numerous aircraft in the air that FR24 doesn't display.

Completely incorrect. As above it can miss fairly large size commercial aircraft in controlled airspace and around airports as well as everywhere else.

Of course, anywhere there is a small plane flying below radar will present a risk. Thankfully, radar coverage is pretty good over most of the populated areas of the US.

You are aware there is a lot of planet earth that is actually located outside the USA? (And as above, even in the USA it doesn't cover everything and that stuff it does cover is possibly delayed, interpolated and for VFR/GA aircraft might not be visible at all. If they're not squawking theres no chance they'll be seen).

 

[MavPro75]

Nothing wrong with what you said, it's just overcomplicated.

However you find yourself in controlled airspace, if you're there without notification to ATC and permission to fly, your in violation of FARs.

Doesn't matter what sort of aircraft you are, whether you were filming a birthday party or inspecting a tower.

400 feet doesn't come in to the issue at all. There is controlled airspace down to ground level, and if you're in it, you're in violation -- at 10 feet AGL.

Please re-read my post. I was in "uncontrolled" airspace at 400 feet

 

[cderoche]

@cderoche, excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about. Sounds like you take proper care, have situational awareness, plan accordingly, and are constantly scanning.

That's how it's done. As opposed to the jackoff that powers up, throws it in the air, and flies with abandon so long as they stay below 400'.

Folks, rules don't keep you, or anyone else, safe. Understanding why the guidelines are what they are, and flying on that basis, is what creates safety.

Right on.
I also wear a seat belt when driving my truck, and not because someone made it a state law either. Gotta rely on common sense first & always, can't wait for da gubmint to come along and tell us what we need to do. You can follow every law and rule there is and still have something disastrous take place if only going by that alone. People that write laws / rules can't think of every possible scenario. I rather refer to them as guidelines.

 

[cderoche]

Please re-read my post. I was in "uncontrolled" airspace at 400 feet

Right, I thought airspace was uncontrolled under 10,000 feet AGL unless near an airport. Class G?

 

[sar104]

Right, I thought airspace was uncontrolled under 10,000 feet AGL unless near an airport. Class G?

In most of the US, Class G only extends to 1200 ft. Above that it's Class E.

 

[cderoche]

In most of the US, Class G only extends to 1200 ft. Above that it's Class E.

Then I read something wrong somewhere, plus the guy with the FAA UAS section that emailed me back also gave me bad info. Maybe you're right, above 1200' might be a stricter class of airspace, those charts are a little odd looking and to me not straightforward, and maybe its only that we fly as hobbyist they can't tell us no, but I'm sure that the consequences of doing so and if you wind up crashing into another aircraft, you're on your own. Check the copy/paste below on what they advised me after I asked if it was OK that I flew higher than 400AGL, and specifically asked if I could go as high as 1600ft, roughly the max limit on the stock Mavic:


[email protected]
May 10

to me

There are no specific altitude restrictions under Section 336, but you must fly safely at all times and the FAA strongly recommends staying at or below 400’ in order to avoid any manned aircraft.

Part 107 covers more than commercial operations – any operation that cannot be conducted under Section 336, which includes some hobby operations, must be conducted under FAA regulations, which include Part 107.


Regards,

FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
Unmanned Aircraft Systems

 

[2X25MPG]

I know the regulations...but sometimes i like to fly over 400ft. Does DJI reports our flights to the FAA?

Let me preferace this by saying that i am a very non tech, old fart and first time drone owner ( Mavic ).
I do not understand how you are able to exceed 400' since the app will not allow you to fly any higher ?

 

[sar104]

Then I read something wrong somewhere, plus the guy with the FAA UAS section that emailed me back also gave me bad info. Maybe you're right, above 1200' might be a stricter class of airspace, those charts are a little odd looking and to me not straightforward, and maybe its only that we fly as hobbyist they can't tell us no, but I'm sure that the consequences of doing so and if you wind up crashing into another aircraft, you're on your own. Check the copy/paste below on what they advised me after I asked if it was OK that I flew higher than 400AGL, and specifically asked if I could go as high as 1600ft, roughly the max limit on the stock Mavic:


[email protected]
May 10

to me

There are no specific altitude restrictions under Section 336, but you must fly safely at all times and the FAA strongly recommends staying at or below 400’ in order to avoid any manned aircraft.

Part 107 covers more than commercial operations – any operation that cannot be conducted under Section 336, which includes some hobby operations, must be conducted under FAA regulations, which include Part 107.


Regards,

FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
Unmanned Aircraft Systems

336 (“Public Law 112-95, Section 336”, in the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012) is the Model Aircraft Special Rule that is codified 14 CFR 101. That's a pretty short section:

§101.41 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes rules governing the operation of a model aircraft (or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft) that meets all of the following conditions as set forth in section 336 of Public Law 112-95:

(a) The aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;

(b) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;

(c) The aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;

(d) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and

(e) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation.
​

§101.43 Endangering the safety of the National Airspace System.
No person may operate model aircraft so as to endanger the safety of the national airspace system.​

There is no altitude restriction beyond the rather vague and undefined reference to following a community-based set of safety guidelines.

But note that CFR 14 101.41, is "Applicability", and what it means is not that you have broken the law in question if you do not comply, but that you are no longer considered to be flying under Part 101. By default you would therefore be flying under Part 107 and potentially breaking the actual regulatory requirements in 14 CFR 107. So no one is going to be prosecuted under 101.41 - they would instead be prosecuted under 14 CFR 107. 101.43 is a different beast - that is a rule that has potential consequences.

Only Part 107 makes explicit reference to airspace classes, and says that flights are only permitted in Class G unless you have an FAA waiver or authorization. There used to be quite a lot of higher altitude Class G in the US, but the G/E boundary has been lowered to 1200 ft almost everywhere. It's hard to find any high-alitude Class G on sectionals these days.

The comments you quoted from the FAA are broadly correct, with the caveat that I'm not clear what "hobby operations" might not fall under 336/101 since that is the definition that they use.

 

[msinger]

I do not understand how you are able to exceed 400' since the app will not allow you to fly any higher ?

The app allows you to fly up to 500 meters over top of the takeoff point.

 

[Oingo Boingo]

FWIW, DJI will only have the flight logs if they are synced in DJI GO. Otherwise, they will all remain locally on the Mavic and mobile device.

U hope

 

[msinger]

U hope

No hoping necessary. I wear one of these while flying just to be safe:

 

[dwallersv]

If you didn't put one on your cat too,

YOU'RE
NOT
SAFE!

 

[Jacknet007]

If you didn't put one on your cat too,

YOU'RE
NOT
SAFE!

This is correct because cats are actually aliens from another galaxy sent here to spy and observe humans! You can tell by looking at those eyes.