How does 10Km range qualify as VLOS?

[kwolfskill]

Hey Gang,

Sorry, but I'm still confused about Visual Line Of Sight. Based on what I read in: Section 107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation. (2019), I see the following:

“(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft’s location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.“

People claimed that the 4Km range of the Mavic Air was a limitation and by adding Occusync 2.0, it now should match the 10Km range of the MP2. And yes, I understand there are other reasons for adding Occusync 2.0.

Who can actually see a drone that size from 10Km away with their unaided eyes? I would guess no one can unless the drone has had decent strobes added to it.

Thus my confusion about why these drones need to be able to fly 10Km away from the operator and it is considered a limiting factor if they can't?

 

[msinger]

Who can actually see a drone that size from 10Km away with their unaided eyes?

I guess the same could be asked about cars. Who should be driving 130+ MPH in a 25 MPH speed zone?

I don't see anything wrong with manufacturers trying to increase the signal strength. That should also make for a better signal when flying nearby and/or operating in noisier environments.

 

[old man mavic]

the real reason for having occusync is not really about range, its more to do with a constant interference free connection,between thr RC and the AC,,the increase in range is a by product of the way the signal is generated and transmitted

 

[Deleted member 94047]

@msinger took the words right out of my mouth. Also, there is a few more countries in the world than just the United States; where US laws and regulations don't apply.

 

[PhantomFandom]

While all the answers here are quite correct, we all know that it is a selling point and that buyers will always push the limits and fly as far as they possibly can. DJI (and other manufacturers) specifically market the range as a feature. If it's more about signal strength then why market it as "10 Km range" ? They could market it as some indication of signal strength at 300 meters for instance.

There is one aspect though that would come into play and that is if/when the BVLOS regulations do change here in the USA. At some point the FAA will more easily allow BVLOS flight due to the economic and business pressures of today's society, when they can do so and still assure a reasonable level of safety. When that day comes, it is nice to have the hardware already that can fly farther than VLOS.

 

[jagraphics]

I guess the same could be asked about cars. Who should be driving 130+ MPH in a 25 MPH speed zone?

I don't see anything wrong with manufacturers trying to increase the signal strength. That should also make for a better signal when flying nearby and/or operating in noisier environments.

I agree. The stonger signal strength meas that I can safely fly 500m VLOS in a noisy environment. this is electrically noisy. Most large modern buildings are steel framed. There are mobile phone transmitters "everywhere" and wifi and ...... In an urban environment you are less likley to lose controll of the drone.

Out out of sight some between 500 and 800 meters from me I have a mobile phone mast and an electricity substation. Neither can be seen from my property and nor would they be seen on 2 out of the three possible approaches to my property. SO if you came here to fly you probably would not know of these two major sources of signal disruption until after you took off.

On some of the steel framed buildings in town 3 miles away there are mobile phone and emergency services transmitters on the top of them. Then there is the arc welding set up in the industrual site where you are doing a roof survey. there are lots of places where there is something to disrupt the signal and these are things you can't see,

These can also upset the GPS so return to home might find a new home.

 

[15PSI]

Yep. It is all about two things. Increased signal pressure and the ability to fly in areas of the world that do not have restrictions.

 

[Aaron24]

I would bet that 99% of drone pilots know about about the VLOS rules that apply in their respective countries. But the same percentage of pilots also fly their drone beyond VLOS as well, but probably won’t actually admit to that in this forum. Honestly..... how much fun is it and how limiting is it to only fly your drone as far away from you as you can see it?

 

[aokusman]

I would bet that 99% of drone pilots know about about the VLOS rules that apply in their respective countries. But the same percentage of pilots also fly their drone beyond VLOS as well, but probably won’t actually admit to that in this forum. Honestly..... how much fun is it and how limiting is it to only fly your drone as far away from you as you can see it?

These drones are sold around the world and countries have different rules not just one.

 

[mereflyer]

This a touchy one - lets keep it that way!

 

[mfc]

In the UK, at least, it is perfectly legal to fly a drone beyond line of sight if you have the right licence. It is only untrained/unlicensed operators that are restricted to line-of-sight, daylight operations only, etc.

 

[Micktss]

In the UK, at least, it is perfectly legal to fly a drone beyond line of sight if you have the right licence. It is only untrained/unlicensed operators that are restricted to line-of-sight, daylight operations only, etc.

Thats new on me can you point me at the regs in the UK that say its ok to fly beyond line of sight and what Licence you require!!

 

[mfc]

Thats new on me can you point me at the regs in the UK that say its ok to fly beyond line of sight and what Licence you require!!

There are a set of regulations, most for "commercial operations"; all regulated by the CAA, with various Permissions, etc. For 'Beyond Line Of Sight' operations this looks a good place to start: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP 1861 - BVLOS Fundamentals - UAS Innovation.pdf

 

[Micktss]

There are a set of regulations, most for "commercial operations"; all regulated by the CAA, with various Permissions, etc. For 'Beyond Line Of Sight' operations this looks a good place to start: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP 1861 - BVLOS Fundamentals - UAS Innovation.pdf

Thanks I will read with interest.

 

[ajkm]

The new Matrice specifications have a note that says that the “maximum flight range” is a “proxy” for the link signal strength and stability. In other words, DJI don’t actually, legally, intend flights to be undertaken BVLOS to test the “maximum flight range.” In other words, the “maximum flight range” is not actually intended to indicate the “maximum flight range.”

 

[ajkm]

Oh, and 10km is very clearly not within VLOS no matter what anyone tries to claim.

 

[jagraphics]

The new Matrice specifications have a note that says that the “maximum flight range” is a “proxy” for the link signal strength and stability. In other words, DJI don’t actually, legally, intend flights to be undertaken BVLOS to test the “maximum flight range.” In other words, the “maximum flight range” is not actually intended to indicate the “maximum flight range.”

It is like a car having a "top speed of 200MPH" Were national speed limits are (depending on contry) 120, 70, 55 etc In most parts of the world the only place you can legally use the top speed is on a race track.

 

[Mousehunter]

Just to play devils advocate.
Section 107.31 says:
“(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:
...
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:
(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or
(2) A visual observer.“

I wonder if the visual observer could radio in their observations.

 

[Nostris]

I guess they are written to cover even the most basic of drones. Point 2. for example, doesn’t really take into account that the range out, direction of travel and altitude above takeoff point is all available to the operator via his or her controller. That said, I usually operate my Mavic Air in line of sight. It’s very easy to loose sight of a small drone like the Air 1 at a distance of less that 200 metres.

 

[Winston Bull]

Just to play devils advocate.
Section 107.31 says:
“(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:
...
(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:
(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or
(2) A visual observer.“

I wonder if the visual observer could radio in their observations.

Yes, in the US, as long as your and the VO's observational ranges overlap by just that much....s/he can radio back to the pilot.