Mavic Pro-2 vs Zoom and P4P - Line Skipping + Sensor Heat?

CanadaDrone · Oct 1, 2018

sar104 said:
"Just knowing the way the MP2 reads/processes video compared to how the P4P, you don't even need to see comparisons to know one will be much better than the other...."

And there is the single biggest problem with this discussion, in a nutshell. Firstly, you don't know how the M2P reads and processes - you are just guessing based on speculation, some of which is clearly wrong. Secondly, all the stuff I've seen on YouTube is as worthless as the last YT example posted on this thread - mostly uncontrolled, poorly processed video, or examined at ludicrous magnifications. Thirdly, not being interested in actually looking at actual video makes the entire argument pointless.

DJI posted an explanation somewhere. Also as I said in my post I have seen actual footage from each, and suggested others view the same and decide for themselves. The tiniest details of exactly how the processing works we will never know, as with any imaging device. It very clearly does not do so in the exact same way as the P4P, which is the key.

We also know the P4P has a mechanical shutter, which has obvious advantages in some situations.

If you can't see a clear difference in the actual footage, we probably just have different standards for image quality and that is totally fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. My problem is I have an RX100 VA and have seen a lot of P4P footage, so the differences really stand out to me. If you are coming from an original MP you are probably going to be quite impressed.

sar104 · Oct 1, 2018

CanadaDrone said:
DJI posted an explanation somewhere. Also as I said in my post I have seen actual footage from each, and suggested others view the same and decide for themselves. The tiniest details of exactly how the processing works we will never know, as with any imaging device. It very clearly does not do so in the exact same way as the P4P, which is the key.

We also know the P4P has a mechanical shutter, which has obvious advantages in some situations.

If you can't see a clear difference in the actual footage, we probably just have different standards for image quality and that is totally fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. My problem is I have an RX100 VA and have seen a lot of P4P footage, so the differences really stand out to me. If you are coming from an original MP you are probably going to be quite impressed.

DJI's explanation was vague, at best, and gave no details at all. If you think that simply knowing that it does it differently allows you to conclude that it would produce visibly worse video without even looking then we probably have different standards for evidence. The mechanical shutter is completely irrelevant to aliasing. I also have an RX100, among other cameras, which I've compared to the M2P, and I've actually tested the resolution and onset of aliasing. Yes - it's trivially obviously much better than the MP. And further on in my post that you partially quoted, I pointed out exactly what I see as the differences from the RX100. So far I would say that I've applied rather more rigor to the comparison process than anyone else in this thread.

CanadaDrone · Oct 1, 2018

sar104 said:
DJI's explanation was vague, at best, and gave no details at all. If you think that simply knowing that it does it differently allows you to conclude that it would produce visibly worse video without even looking then we probably have different standards for evidence. The mechanical shutter is completely irrelevant to aliasing. I also have an RX100, among other cameras, which I've compared to the M2P, and I've actually tested the resolution and onset of aliasing. Yes - it's trivially obviously much better than the MP. And further on in my post that you partially quoted, I pointed out exactly what I see as the differences from the RX100. So far I would say that I've applied rather more rigor to the comparison process than anyone else in this thread.

If you read my post you would see that I am comparing actual footage to form my opinions, and aliasing is not the only image quality issue between the two. I am only interested in objective comparisons. I did not say anything about the mechanical shutter and aliasing. Viewing the RAW footage with my own eyes is what matters the most to me when making a proper comparison and subsequent purchase decision (I download RAWs and do the exact same thing before I purchase a new DSLR). A very clear difference exists to me and apparently many others on this forum and elsewhere. Some people won't care, others will. I am extremely picky and am in the latter camp. If the difference is trivial to you, we do not share the same IQ standards and that is 100% fine. Like I said - I see what that sensor is capable of in other applications all the time, so when it's worse than that, it stands out like a sore thumb. That may not be the same for others. Enjoy whatever it is you decide to buy, we're lucky to have so many options

sar104 · Oct 1, 2018

CanadaDrone said:
If you read my post you would see that I am comparing actual footage to form my opinions, and aliasing is not the only image quality issue between the two. I am only interested in objective comparisons. I did not say anything about the mechanical shutter and aliasing. Viewing the RAW footage with my own eyes is what matters the most to me when making a proper comparison and subsequent purchase decision (I download RAWs and do the exact same thing before I purchase a new DSLR). A very clear difference exists to me and apparently many others on this forum and elsewhere. Some people won't care, others will. I am extremely picky and am in the latter camp. If the difference is trivial to you, we do not share the same IQ standards and that is 100% fine. Like I said - I see what that sensor is capable of in other applications all the time, so when it's worse than that, it stands out like a sore thumb. That may not be the same for others. Enjoy whatever it is you decide to buy, we're lucky to have so many options

I didn't say the difference was trivial - I said that the difference is not what many people are asserting it to be. In my case the issue is somewhat academic since I bought the M2P primarily for photography. I realize that you have compared raw footage. I'm not sure that I agree that's the right comparison since different recording schemes require different processing to achieve optimal results, but if that's your strategy then fine. I'm also skeptical that many others complaining on this thread have done any actual comparisons at all - many of them appear just to be repeating what they have heard from YouTube reviewers.

igor88 · Oct 1, 2018

Building such a small portable drone, but with all those features inside. Good flight time. That flies so nicely. And is reliable. And good looking. Then, put a 1” sensor inside, with steady gimbal. Its marvelous.
Yea. But finding out that they are processing picture with mavic1 quality type sensor, saving 60$ or so, was like. Like: “now how stupid is that”.
No. It was not stupid. Neither was it mistake. It was a business decision. And I can understand that.
Actually. Stupid is crying over it.
And even more stupid is pretending that that’s not the case, trying to convince others that the picture is ok.

I’m signing out for 2 time.

sar104 · Oct 1, 2018

igor88 said:
Building such a small portable drone, but with all those features inside. Good flight time. That flies so nicely. And is reliable. And good looking. Then, put a 1” sensor inside, with steady gimbal. Its marvelous.
Yea. But finding out that they are processing picture with mavic1 quality type sensor, saving 60$ or so, was like. Like: “now how stupid is that”.
No. It was not stupid. Neither was it mistake. It was a business decision. And I can understand that.
Actually. Stupid is crying over it.
And even more stupid is pretending that that’s not the case, trying to convince others that the picture is ok.

I’m signing out for 2 time.

It's not a Mavic 1 type sensor. Not even remotely close.

CanadaDrone · Oct 1, 2018

sar104 said:
I didn't say the difference was trivial - I said that the difference is not what many people are asserting it to be. In my case the issue is somewhat academic since I bought the M2P primarily for photography. I realize that you have compared raw footage. I'm not sure that I agree that's the right comparison since different recording schemes require different processing to achieve optimal results, but if that's your strategy then fine. I'm also skeptical that many others complaining on this thread have done any actual comparisons at all - many of them appear just to be repeating what they have heard from YouTube reviewers.

I suspect you're right, probably a lot of people just speculating, but I guess it's still the same story at the end of the day. I was one of the people expecting P4P (or close) image quality from the M2P and unfortunately we didn't get that, but I understand that it was likely a difficult engineering compromise to get us the 1" sensor in the first place and not make the M2P a lot bigger. Still a great drone that I plan to buy - it's just less exciting due to my original expectations combined with the early leaks of a 1" sensor. It will completely change my view on stills photography though - they MA and MP/M2Z are quite poor in this regard, but the M2P really excels there.

sar104 · Oct 1, 2018

CanadaDrone said:
I suspect you're right, probably a lot of people just speculating, but I guess it's still the same story at the end of the day. I was one of the people expecting P4P (or close) image quality from the M2P and unfortunately we didn't get that, but I understand that it was likely a difficult engineering compromise to get us the 1" sensor in the first place and not make the M2P a lot bigger. Still a great drone that I plan to buy - it's just less exciting due to my original expectations combined with the early leaks of a 1" sensor. It will completely change my view on stills photography though - they MA and MP/M2Z are quite poor in this regard, but the M2P really excels there.

Fair enough - high expectations are fine. If you do end up getting one then I'd be interested to know if your opinion changes once you have had a chance to work with it.

yysc · Oct 1, 2018

sar104 said:
It's not a Mavic 1 type sensor. Not even remotely close.

He said processor. And truly this is not the junk A9 of the Mavic 1, but the H1 which is already obsolete produced better video results in the P4P. Note DJI also used the H1 in the Mavic Air.

sar104 said:
I didn't say the difference was trivial - I said that the difference is not what many people are asserting it to be. In my case the issue is somewhat academic since I bought the M2P primarily for photography. I realize that you have compared raw footage. I'm not sure that I agree that's the right comparison since different recording schemes require different processing to achieve optimal results, but if that's your strategy then fine. I'm also skeptical that many others complaining on this thread have done any actual comparisons at all - many of them appear just to be repeating what they have heard from YouTube reviewers.

Since you care about photography and here nobody complained about stills, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve when dismissing everybody's efforts to point out video issues. This thread is about video issues.

Many of us come from the P4P so we noticed the M2P video issues straight away without needing YT reviews to englighten us.

sar104 · Oct 1, 2018

yysc said:
He said processor. And truly this is not the junk A9 of the Mavic 1, but the H1 which is already obsolete produced better video results in the P4P. Note DJI also used the H1 in the Mavic Air.

No - he said sensor.

The rumors are that the processor is actually a custom DJI chip rather than the H1.

Since you care about photography and here nobody complained about stills, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve when dismissing everybody's efforts to point out video issues. This thread is about video issues.

Many of us come from the P4P so we noticed the M2P video issues straight away without needing YT reviews to englighten us.

And video is what I have been addressing almost exclusively. If you regard attempting controlled testing, presenting the results, pointing out obvious errors in assertions and hypotheses and asking awkward questions as "dismissing everybody's efforts" then I'm not sure what to say. It's a puzzle and I'm a physicist - it's what I do.

Vegasrobbi · Oct 1, 2018

Zoom looks pretty good next to the Pro:

mattball · Oct 2, 2018

Robbyg said:
You will never get a straight answer from DJI.
They will either just fix the issue if they can or they will ignore it and have their surrogates tell you that it is not an important issue.

Sales may drop a bit but they will keep churning out drones until they make an MP2P with the fixes.

Rob

With the droves of people just wanting to buy the latest and greatest, they are not worried about a few lost sales. They won't fix the issues because the consumers seem to accept what they get at face value. "We'll fix it in post !!" Yaaaaaaay DJI
almost 5000 bucks on DJI drones in the last few years, and these days I don't accept their BS. GO4 app blows, they know it and don't care to fix it, or subdivide the drone groups to their own apps.

I am one of those few % they will lose, but the line waiting to buy is much longer.

dwallersv · Oct 2, 2018

WithTheBirds said:
The FOV mode looks fantastic with a bit of post. Nobody will see an issue when its transcoded out into a final clip.

That's a reasonable judgement.

Equally reasonable is that given the sensor, it could look a lot better, and we'd like to know why it doesn't.

kraft2000 · Oct 2, 2018

Is there a video somewhere clearly showing the Pro in FOV mode beating the hell out of the Zoom in 28mm ?

spence · Oct 2, 2018

You're now on /ignore, sar104, FWIW.

We're well past the point of demonstrating and proving the problem. We're now on to whether or not DJI is going to do anything about it. You're just wasting folks' time, at this point. Give it a rest? You're totally happy with this drone's performance. We get it. Move along.

Dipping back in after a couple of weeks, hoping to see improvements or a fix. What a bummer.

Robbyg · Oct 2, 2018

mattball said:
With the droves of people just wanting to buy the latest and greatest, they are not worried about a few lost sales. They won't fix the issues because the consumers seem to accept what they get at face value. "We'll fix it in post !!" Yaaaaaaay DJI
almost 5000 bucks on DJI drones in the last few years, and these days I don't accept their BS. GO4 app blows, they know it and don't care to fix it, or subdivide the drone groups to their own apps.

I am one of those few % they will lose, but the line waiting to buy is much longer.

Your right but the effect is accumulative. I decided not to buy a MP2 because of all the initial issues with the MP1.
I am sure there are hundreds if not thousands of people who have gotten burned by being an early adopter of most of their drone models and accessories. All of the people who have a measure of restraint will hesitate to buy any DJI product based on their sales pitches or their YouTube promoter videos.

I had to laugh when I saw the Ikopta video about this issue. A lovely side step from a resolution issue into better color.

My message to him:
Post production color correction = Easy to Fix.
Getting back missing resolution = Nearly Impossible.

Rob

Cliff_622 · Oct 2, 2018

sar104 said:
"Just knowing the way the MP2 reads/processes video compared to how the P4P, you don't even need to see comparisons to know one will be much better than the other...."

And there is the single biggest problem with this discussion, in a nutshell. Firstly, you don't know how the M2P reads and processes - you are just guessing based on speculation, some of which is clearly wrong. Secondly, all the stuff I've seen on YouTube is as worthless as the last YT example posted on this thread - mostly uncontrolled, poorly processed video, or examined at ludicrous magnifications. Thirdly, not being interested in actually looking at actual video makes the entire argument pointless.

I've spent way too long now looking at video and frame grab samples, and now doing actual resolution tests. For what it's worth, which is likely not much, the method apparently used on the P4P (20 MP readout to the image processor followed by some form of processing down to 4k) seems to produce cleaner results in terms of aliasing than the M2P in FOV Dlog-M (some kind of downsampling apparently on the sensor itself) at certain spatial frequencies. As spatial frequency increases towards the resolution limit, the full-readout approach seems to give the expected gradual transition from clearly resolved through classical moiré to unresolved, while the M2P goes from well-resolved to moiré to resolved again before reaching unresolved. That may be responsible for the less pleasing appearance of aliasing. It will be interesting to find out whether that is constrained by hardware or whether firmware improvements are possible.

Try this....forget and ignore all the side by side comparisons between M2P, M2Z and P4P. If anybody refutes or does not believe DJI's own admission that they ARE subsampling (a.k.a. pixel binning) and that this tactic DOES in fact have an admitted negative quality impact...if you think FOV is and imaginary problem that DJI is lying about for some bizare reason....

Just do this super simple test. Take your M2P and shoot FOV "4k" and compare it to your very own 2.7k test and try to find a significant difference.....

Thats all. Case closed.

0Kajuna0 · Oct 2, 2018

Cliff_622 said:
Try this....forget and ignore all the side by side comparisons between M2P, M2Z and P4P. If anybody refutes or does not believe DJI's own admission that they ARE subsampling (a.k.a. pixel binning) and that this tactic DOES in fact have an admitted negative quality impact...if you think FOV is and imaginary problem that DJI is lying about for some bizare reason....

Just do this super simple test. Take your M2P and shoot FOV "4k" and compare it to your very own 2.7k test and try to find a significant difference.....

Thats all. Case closed.

And that's comparing it to an already poor (aliased) 2.7k footage created by skipping half of the lines in a 5.4K sensor

sar104 · Oct 2, 2018

Cliff_622 said:
Try this....forget and ignore all the side by side comparisons between M2P, M2Z and P4P. If anybody refutes or does not believe DJI's own admission that they ARE subsampling (a.k.a. pixel binning) and that this tactic DOES in fact have an admitted negative quality impact...if you think FOV is and imaginary problem that DJI is lying about for some bizare reason....

Just do this super simple test. Take your M2P and shoot FOV "4k" and compare it to your very own 2.7k test and try to find a significant difference.....

Thats all. Case closed.

I didn't compare the resolution charts results with 2.7k, but that's worth a try.

To reiterate, again, I'm not arguing that the FOV scheme is not impacting the image quality relative to what we accept as full-sensor readout followed by down-sampling on the image processor on the P4P. What I'm arguing is that I cannot see how it can be simply line-skipping or simple sub-sampling, based on resulting resolution. And note that the DJI statement said that it was not line-skipping or simple sub-sampling.