Refusal to Register With FAA

[JSKCKNIT]

Recently while flying under 336 rules, a state police asked for my registration which I have for all of my drones. I asked him since this was under hobby rules if I really had to show him this. He brought up a memo on his phone that the FAA had sent the State Police. It stated that I would be required to provide my registration or face possible fines due to being in violation of 336?!

Thanks for the correction.

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions
#3 under registration

 

[ac0j]

Yet another thread about a pretty important item, that is made confusing because of WRONG information being posted and defended to death.
Its tough out there for the newbs. Thanks goodness the FAA site is ALMOST idiot proof.

 

[tcope]

I'm surprised that anyone is still arguing about this. It's trivial to go to the FAA registration site to see how it works, at which point it becomes obvious that you cannot register a drone under Section 336. The Section 336 dashboard doesn't have any mechanism to add drones - once you have registered yourself it simply tells you to mark all your aircraft with your assigned registration number.

I went even further and posted the actual pages from the FAA registration showing that this was the case. Not so much to convince people who are simply going to argue against the very clear facts... but more so for the other people who want the _correct_ information. If someone wants to continue to argue that they registered their drone on the FAA website, so be it. Everyone else can see that this is impossible.

 

[jaysrmc]

I went even further and posted the actual pages from the FAA registration showing that this was the case. Not so much to convince people who are simply going to argue against the very clear facts... but more so for the other people who want the _correct_ information. If someone wants to continue to argue that they registered their drone on the FAA website, so be it. Everyone else can see that this is impossible.

I admit that I registered my drones under part 107 on the FAA website. I also admitted that I did not register as a hobby pilot. However, it is not impossible to register you drone with a serial number if you register under 107. It is impossible if you register as a hobby pilot but the registration is both good for Hobby and 107 pilots. I just wanted to clear that up and I apologize for arguing with you when you were speaking about hobby pilots and registration and I have never registered as a hobby pilot so I was wrong and should have been clear. Can we please put this to bed now?

 

[ac0j]

I admit that I registered my drones under part 107 on the FAA website. I also admitted that I did not register as a hobby pilot. However, it is not impossible to register you drone with a serial number if you register under 107. It is impossible if you register as a hobby pilot but the registration is both good for Hobby and 107 pilots. I just wanted to clear that up and I apologize for arguing with you when you were speaking about hobby pilots and registration and I have never registered as a hobby pilot so I was wrong and should have been clear. Can we please put this to bed now?

@JD2020 is the one that festered it up again, and made some pretty weird attempts to prove himself right like calling some clerk at the FAA and asking him, all the time not realizing he was fighting a different fight too. He must have done part 107 too. Didnt bother to read the posts that were presented to you to help you understand.
Just argued and argued. I agree though, enough is enough. He may never get it.

 

[JD2020]

@JD2020 is the one that festered it up again, and made some pretty weird attempts to prove himself right like calling some clerk at the FAA and asking him, all the time not realizing he was fighting a different fight too. He must have done part 107 too. Didnt bother to read the posts that were presented to you to help you understand.
Just argued and argued. I agree though, enough is enough. He may never get it.

In an earlier post, I delineated exactly what you were saying that is wrong, and that is that. You are the one who continues to dredge this up, unable to admit that the points you were trying to make are wrong, fore reasons I have repeatedly explained. Now you say I must "have done part 107 too." I did not do part 107. I am a recreational user. The drone I fly is registered under a family member's name.

The image of text that @JSKCKNIT posted above makes that clear. It even says that if you let someone else fly your drone, they must have a copy of your registration in their possession. It does not say that that the user must also somehow be registered. It's simply defies belief that you keep arguing that a recreational user is registering himself and not his drone. If he was registering himself, then everyone who ever flies recreationally would be under an obligation to register, even if they did not own a drone. And that is not the case.

So, as I have made clear time and time again, a recreational user is registering his drone, not himself. Every time you have made an argument, I have explained clearly and concisely why you are wrong. Now you will come back and argue this again, of course. But instead of stating why I am wrong, you will simply make statements that I am wrong and act as though I am being unreasonable. You even dismiss what an FAA employee told me. That is trolling.

 

[sar104]

In an earlier post, I delineated exactly what you were saying that is wrong, and that is that. You are the one who continues to dredge this up, unable to admit that the points you were trying to make are wrong, fore reasons I have repeatedly explained. Now you say I must "have done part 107 too." I did not do part 107. I am a recreational user. The drone I fly is registered under a family member's name.

The image of text that @JSKCKNIT posted above makes that clear. It even says that if you let someone else fly your drone, they must have a copy of your registration in their possession. It does not say that that the user must also somehow be registered. It's simply defies belief that you keep arguing that a recreational user is registering himself and not his drone. If he was registering himself, then everyone who ever flies recreationally would be under an obligation to register, even if they did not own a drone. And that is not the case.

So, as I have made clear time and time again, a recreational user is registering his drone, not himself. Every time you have made an argument, I have explained clearly and concisely why you are wrong. Now you will come back and argue this again, of course. But instead of stating why I am wrong, you will simply make statements that I am wrong and act as though I am being unreasonable. You even dismiss what an FAA employee told me. That is trolling.

The situation is not entirely consistent which is probably the source of the disagreement. The best way to look at it, I think, is that recreational drones have to have a registered owner. It is the owner, not the drone, who is registered, but once a drone has a registered owner and that owner's registration number is on the drone, others can fly it as long as they have a copy of the registration.

 

[JD2020]

I'm surprised that anyone is still arguing about this. It's trivial to go to the FAA registration site to see how it works, at which point it becomes obvious that you cannot register a drone under Section 336. The Section 336 dashboard doesn't have any mechanism to add drones - once you have registered yourself it simply tells you to mark all your aircraft with your assigned registration number.

I'm not trying to say that you must register each drone separately. The requirement is that when you own a drone, you must register it. Then the number they give must be placed on all of your drones. But the reason I state that the registration is for the drone and not the operator is because operators that do not own drones are not required to register, and, according to the FAA rep I spoke to, should not register. This is also what the AMA rep I spoke to told me. As another person pointed out, users of your drone must have your registration with them, not their own. The goal is clearly that any drone found having caused damage can be traced back to a person who then can be asked about who was flying it.

 

[sar104]

I'm not trying to say that you must register each drone separately. The requirement is that when you own a drone, you must register it. Then the number they give must be placed on all of your drones. But the reason I state that the registration is for the drone and not the operator is because operators that do not own drones are not required to register, and, according to the FAA rep I spoke to, should not register. This is also what the AMA rep I spoke to told me. As another person pointed out, users of your drone must have your registration with them, not their own. The goal is clearly that any drone found having caused damage can be traced back to a person who then can be asked about who was flying it.

See my post above (#128). The registration is not for the drone - it is for the owner. That's why you don't need to register yourself to operate someone else's drone - you are not the owner.

 

[JD2020]

The situation is not entirely consistent which is probably the source of the disagreement. The best way to look at it, I think, is that recreational drones have to have a registered owner. It is the owner, not the drone, who is registered, but once a drone has a registered owner and that owner's registration number is on the drone, others can fly it as long as they have a copy of the registration.

We were posting at the same time here. You state it is the owner and not the drone who is registered. What is your support for that assertion? The duty to register only occurs when purchase a drone (that you will fly), not when you merely fly one. If you were registering the person, the duty would not be not only on drone purchasers/owners, but on all drone flyers, and that is not what the FAA says, and not with the AMA says. Just because your name is on it does not mean you are being registered.

Again I will return to the car analogy, which one person here keeps criticizing as though it were not on point. I have my mother's last car. She is too old to drive it. She bought it and registered it in her name. I drive it regularly (with her permission, of course). I do not have to register it in my name. If it's found abandoned at the scene of an accident, the police will come to her, and she will tell them who had her car, and they will come question me. They will go to her because it is registered in her name.

Similarly, you are registering the drone. It's not as precise as registering a car because they have not developed the equivalent of VIN numbers for drones. But you must put your FAA number on all of your drones. As a car driver, even when driving someone else's car, you must have your own driver's license (as well as the registered owner's registration). As a recreational drown user, you do not have to have a license to fly a drone. You only have to have a copy of the registration that shows the drone is registered (and the number, the equivalent of a license tag on a car, must be on the drone you are flying).

I've seen your name mentioned in these forums many times, so I'm more than willing to listen to what you have to say. If I am wrong about this, please explain why.

 

[ac0j]

See my post above (#128). The registration is not for the drone - it is for the owner. That's why you don't need to register yourself to operate someone else's drone - you are not the owner.

He is NEVER going to get it.
He would rather argue than read.

 

[JD2020]

He is NEVER going to get it.
He would rather argue than read.

I'm reading plenty, and now I'm speaking/posting to a different person who isn't just on here making unsupported statements. So, instead of wading in for some more trolling, why don't you just let our conversation continue. Regardless of the ultimate outcome, I have proven your points wrong over and over.

 

[ac0j]

I'm reading plenty, and now I'm speaking/posting to a different person who isn't just on here making unsupported statements. So, instead of wading in for some more trolling, why don't you just let our conversation continue. Regardless of the ultimate outcome, I have proven your points wrong over and over.

The one you are replying to has explained this several times through out this thread. Just because you choose not to believe people that have actually registered drones, does not make you right.

 

[JD2020]

The one you are replying to has explained this several times through out this thread. Just because you choose not to believe people that have actually registered drones, does not make you right.

Wow, you are trolling so hard. You can't help but respond every time. I am the one who is saying that you DO register drones. Recreational users register drones, not themselves. Again, please do the decent thing and let me hear out this other poster who, if I am wrong, might explain why I am wrong in a logical manner with support. You have failed to do that.

 

[ac0j]

start reading this very thread from the beginning. If that doesnt help, so be it.

 

[sar104]

We were posting at the same time here. You state it is the owner and not the drone who is registered. What is your support for that assertion?

I'm not sure how to answer that. Perhaps because the process involves providing your details, just once, rather than any details about a drone. And because you get one registration number that you can then put on any drone that you own, including ones that you don't even own at the time of registration. A general characteristic of registering something is that you provide some details about it, and that it gets a unique identifier. I've no clue how you can possibly construe the Section 336 registering process as in any way registering a drone. It doesn't even ask about your drones.

The duty to register only occurs when purchase a drone (that you will fly), not when you merely fly one. If you were registering the person, the duty would not be not only on drone purchasers/owners, but on all drone flyers, and that is not what the FAA says, and not with the AMA says. Just because your name is on it does not mean you are being registered.

So the fact that your registration number is on that drone doesn't mean that you are registered as a drone owner? Sorry - it clearly means exactly that. The number is yours.

Again I will return to the car analogy, which one person here keeps criticizing as though it were not on point. I have my mother's last car. She is too old to drive it. She bought it and registered it in her name. I drive it regularly (with her permission, of course). I do not have to register it in my name. If it's found abandoned at the scene of an accident, the police will come to her, and she will tell them who had her car, and they will come question me. They will go to her because it is registered in her name.

And they will go to the owner of a recreational drone via that person's registration number on the drone. There is no inconsistency there.

Similarly, you are registering the drone. It's not as precise as registering a car because they have not developed the equivalent of VIN numbers for drones. But you must put your FAA number on all of your drones.

No - and you even spelled out the difference. The car has its own unique registration number. The drone does not - it has a registration number assigned to the owner who registered under the Section 336 dashboard.

As a car driver, even when driving someone else's car, you must have your own driver's license (as well as the registered owner's registration). As a recreational drown user, you do not have to have a license to fly a drone. You only have to have a copy of the registration that shows the drone is registered (and the number, the equivalent of a license tag on a car, must be on the drone you are flying).

You don't need a license as a recreational user, but any drone that you fly needs to have a registration number. And that number doesn't show that the drone was registered, because it wasn't - it's the registration number that you obtain after registering your details, not a drone's details, on the FAA registration website. Once you have registered you can buy as many drones as you want and put your registration number on them. You don't have to do anything to register them.

I've seen your name mentioned in these forums many times, so I'm more than willing to listen to what you have to say. If I am wrong about this, please explain why.

Well thanks, but in this case I'm rather baffled because the whole thing seems just blindingly obvious. If what I just wrote doesn't help then I have no more to give.

 

[ac0j]

you know sar, if he doesn't believe you, he is going to call you a troll too!

 

[tcope]

It's simply defies belief that you keep arguing that a recreational user is registering himself and not his drone. If he was registering himself, then everyone who ever flies recreationally would be under an obligation to register, even if they did not own a drone. And that is not the case.

Mentioning someone else's post about something different then you are stating is hardly proof. What _IS_ proof is when someone shows you the actual FAA registration and the _FACT_ that there is absolutely no way to register _ANY_ drone. Yet... you simply continue to state that this is true. Sorry, you are 100% incorrect, have been 100% incorrect all along and that is obvious to everyone that can read. If you would like to review the _facts_, please feel free. Somehow I don't think you will start now.

Refusal to Register With FAA

So, as I have made clear time and time again, a recreational user is registering his drone, not himself.

Nope. You simply use quotes from other people and unrelated information. I actually provided the webpages from the FAA showing the registration information. It shows absolute proof that the FAA _NEVER_ asks for _ANY_ drone information. If you can't accept reality as proof... then you are daft.

At this point I'll simply let my post linked above speak for itself as absolute proof that drones _cannot_ even be registered under hobby use. You can simply disagree with the facts. People will understand who is correct. Have a nice day.

 

[JD2020]

I'm not sure how to answer that. Perhaps because the process involves providing your details, just once, rather than any details about a drone. And because you get one registration number that you can then put on any drone that you own, including ones that you don't even own at the time of registration. A general characteristic of registering something is that you provide some details about it, and that it gets a unique identifier. I've no clue how you can possibly construe the Section 336 registering process as in any way registering a drone. It doesn't even ask about your drones. So the fact that your registration number is on that drone doesn't mean that you are registered as a drone owner? Sorry - it clearly means exactly that. The number is yours. And they will go to the owner of a recreational drone via that person's registration number on the drone. There is no inconsistency there. No - and you even spelled out the difference. The car has its own unique registration number. The drone does not - it has a registration number assigned to the owner who registered under the Section 336 dashboard. You don't need a license as a recreational user, but any drone that you fly needs to have a registration number. And that number doesn't show that the drone was registered, because it wasn't - it's the registration number that you obtain after registering your details, not a drone's details, on the FAA registration website. Once you have registered you can buy as many drones as you want and put your registration number on them. You don't have to do anything to register them. Well thanks, but in this case I'm rather baffled because the whole thing seems just blindingly obvious. If what I just wrote doesn't help then I have no more to give.

I'm sorry, but I'm not good enough with this to break down my answer with individual quotes from your post, but let me respond in order:

1. I agree with what you say. You provide your details and not your drone's. However, let me explain my thinking here: I think that you aren't required to provide your drone's details because there are no uniform details to ask about for drones. We've developed the VIN system for cars over a period of 100 years. The FAA can't require serial numbers because many drones don't have them. Some are even homemade. Still, they want drones to be identifiable. So the FAA has settled for requiring the same unique number be put on each drone you own.

2. I don't understand your second point. Of course you are registered as your drone's owner. Anything that is registered must be registered to some person or entity (or what purpose would registration serve). But that does not mean you are registered. Your drone is registered. You are the registered owner of your drone, but it is your drone that you are registering. If you don't own a drone, no matter how much recreational flying you do, you don't register.

3. Yes, I agree completely. But, going back to your point, a car is registered, while a car's driver is licensed. The drone is registered in its owner's name, but the owner of the recreational drone is not licensed. It is the drone, just like the car, that must be registered.

4. I think the only logical interpretation here, which is consistent with what the FAA and the AMA told me, is that the only reason more details aren't required for the drone is that there is no set of details that all drones have. So there is no practical way for them to require you to have a separate number for each drone. The fact that the number must be on every drone is the point. With that number on the drone, the drone can be traced back to the owner to whom it is registered. I don't see why the lack of a uniform set of details that would allow the FAA to require each individual drone's details leaves you thinking that the drone itself isn't registered. It is registered and must have the number on it (like a car's license tag). That FAA number affixed to your drone is its registration. They do allow you to use it on multiple drones, but that just means that every drone is registered. Having the number on them means that they can be identified and the purpose of registration is thus served.

5. Again, I agree with most of what you state here. But, again you relying on the lack of details on a drone to surmise that the drone itself is not registered. That is simply the state of things now since there is no uniform system of details for drones. I'm sure that this sort of evolution took place with cars. Cars did not always have VIN numbers, yet at some point registration and license plates began to be required. They didn't take all old cars off the road when VIN numbers were implemented.

I do understand your thinking when you say that because you aren't asked to register the details of your drone that it is you that is registered and not your drone. But that does not necessarily follow. We are simply at an early stage where drones do not have universal details (like serial numbers). Who knows, something akin to a VIN number might be required for drones in the future. But just because it's not there now does not mean that you are not registering the drone. Although others have suggested that I'm just arguing for agument's sake, I am not. Now that you've laid this out, I see your reasoning, but I think that the logic your using is flawed. I'm not saying that your ultimate answer is wrong as I'm still not certain about that. I'm only saying that your reasoning here does not necessarily support the conclusion you are drawing.

 

[JD2020]

you know sar, if he doesn't believe you, he is going to call you a troll too!

Again, this is you clearly trolling. I just answered him, and I did not call him a troll because he is not trolling. He stated his reasons, and I have responded to those. I don't see anything in his posts to indicate he is a troll, but you chimed in once again with no added information just to troll. You are a troll.