Mavic Pro: why DJI doesn't fix this huge flickering/compression problem?

[peej1977]

I tried some test footage yesterday in 4K at 30fps with -2 on the sharpening and shooting in D-Log and the image was VERY soft and almost blurry on the outer edges. Especially noticeable on trees etc.

 

[deadwing]

I tried some test footage yesterday in 4K at 30fps with -2 on the sharpening and shooting in D-Log and the image was VERY soft and almost blurry on the outer edges. Especially noticeable on trees etc.

Yes not surprising, is not possible to shoot with Mavic in 4K and 30fps. What I mean is that is technically possible but there's no way you get any decent footage.

You have a limited bandwidth, so less frames mean more quality 'per frame', so always 24fps (the minimum available).

Also 4k -2 although at 24fps is 'similar' to 2k -1, is not the same, so I'd always choose 2k -1 as it's better, in particular on the edges, reason why I said before the Mavic is NOT a 4k camera, they made it so for marketing, in reality is a native/better 2k camera.

Also pay much attention to exposure of shadows and trees (in particular if trees are in shadow! ), you need ND filter to contain highlights and expose to the right of the histogram (all explained in details in previous posts) while using DLOG and then bring back shadows (that will be now detailed) with simple levels adjustment in post.

 

[Pathogen]

Exactly that! I fight with encoders since the times of mpeg and early DVDs and then satellite TV, in the end there's no one magic formula, you have to decide and tweak encoders based on delivery media and most of all based on what you're shooting (and what are the needs, in terms of quality and bandwidth available etc.).

I believe this is why, with DVD mastering for example, a film is not compressed with one setting, but rather many different ones, and even different bit rates, thus explaining why a DVD video from a top end mastering house is made up of potentially hundreds of cels, each with different compression settings, all stitched together into a .vob file.

About the rest, as Oglo noticed the +1 does also flickering and 'fake' sharpening on highlights (branches hit by sun), to be honest I personally struggle finding it any natural...I think most of Mavic footage around has flicker and looks fake because that 'wow is sharp and detailed' factor is to my (trained to be honest) eyes really 'gross'...so I'd push everyone to raise their bar and actually start looking for these artifacts...in the end you'll start a journey that will make your videos not look like "wow is so detailed" but "wow it looks so professional"...because it's what it is, professional doesn't look sharp or detailed, it just looks "professional" Try!

I think there is room for videos that might not look so professional, but are sharp as a razor. I've recently gone through a triple A Hollywood film, that was nearly perfectly immersive, and happen to notice scenes that were brutally over exposed, others with badly blurred details, and other artifacts. Getting that top drawer cinematic effect is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside a paradox! For example, films could easily now be 60fps, but that would loose the hypnotic effect that properly shuttered 24fps imposes on the viewer. Shh you didn't hear me say that. Oh God I hear them coming for me!

On the other hand, other colour modes can be used for non contrasty scenes, but I'd say why when all you need in post for DLOG

I would say just because its extremely easy to do, if one can get the exposure correct, and the results can be fantastic. Once I read and applied what Oglo was saying about exposure, it changed my game, and instantly had a jaw dropping clip come right out of the Mavic. It's a tightrope walk scene/exposure wise, and not practical for folks who already have a working production pipeline, but for the casual operator, I'd say its worth a look.

Yes not surprising, is not possible to shoot with Mavic in 4K and 30fps. What I mean is that is technically possible but there's no way you get any decent footage.

You have a limited bandwidth, so less frames mean more quality 'per frame', so always 24fps (the minimum available).

Invariably, a higher frame rate is going to allocate more bits for motion information. Conversely, trying to watch a hockey game at 24fps would be painful. For certain recordings it may well be useful to use frame rates well beyond 24fps, like maybe flying the Mavic through a sorority house in sporty mode?

When they try to pack more motion info in 24fps material using a high speed shutter, like the movie 'Gladiator', it can work well, but I suspect it requires enormous previsualization and very selective scene content.

---

I did some tests and then wanted to have the results easily available for future reference as far as the in built profiles and how they relate to each other, maybe it will be helpful to others. Cheers!

 

[deadwing]

Yes not surprising, is not possible to shoot with Mavic in 4K and 30fps. What I mean is that is technically possible but there's no way you get any decent footage.

You have a limited bandwidth, so less frames mean more quality 'per frame', so always 24fps (the minimum available).

Also 4k -2 although at 24fps is 'similar' to 2k -1, is not the same, so I'd always choose 2k -1 as it's better sometimes. Also pay much attention to exposure of shadows and trees (in particular if trees are in shadow! ), you need ND filter to contain highlights and expose to the right of the histogram (all explained in details in previous posts) while using DLOG and then bring back shadows (that will be now detailed) with simple levels adjustment in post.

I believe this is why, with DVD mastering for example, a film is not compressed with one setting, but rather many different ones, and even different bit rates, thus explaining why a DVD video from a top end mastering house is made up of potentially hundreds of cels, each with different compression settings, all stitched together into a .vob file.


I think there is room for videos that might not look so professional, but are sharp as a razor. I've recently gone through a triple A Hollywood film, that was nearly perfectly immersive, and happen to notice scenes that were brutally over exposed, others with badly blurred details, and other artifacts. Getting that top drawer cinematic effect is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside a paradox! For example, films could easily now be 60fps, but that would loose the hypnotic effect that properly shuttered 24fps imposes on the viewer. Shh you didn't hear me say that. Oh God I hear them coming for me!


I would say just because its extremely easy to do, if one can get the exposure correct, and the results can be fantastic. Once I read and applied what Oglo was saying about exposure, it changed my game, and instantly had a jaw dropping clip come right out of the Mavic. It's a tightrope walk scene/exposure wise, and not practical for folks who already have a working production pipeline, but for the casual operator, I'd say its worth a look.


Invariably, a higher frame rate is going to allocate more bits for motion information. Conversely, trying to watch a hockey game at 24fps would be painful. For certain recordings it may well be useful to use frame rates well beyond 24fps, like maybe flying the Mavic through a sorority house in sporty mode?

When they try to pack more motion info in 24fps material using a high speed shutter, like the movie 'Gladiator', it can work well, but I suspect it requires enormous previsualization and very selective scene content.

---

I did some tests and then wanted to have the results easily available for future reference as far as the in built profiles and how they relate to each other, maybe it will be helpful to others. Cheers!

View attachment 15398

Cheers, excellent test with all the colours! I would choose (unsurprisingly!) the DLOG or Normal, all the others seem a waste

And ssssh don't tell anyone about framerates...they'll kill you! But to be honest, apart from sporting stuff (that luckily I can avoid like plague) I do like much more the 24fps, always...more than that seems 'unnatural' to me, but is a completely subjective thing as you said, probably young lads used to watch ultra 4k what not they're used to 120fps hypersharp mode..for me it's just not the way my eyes see

Anyway the key phrase is "Getting that top drawer cinematic effect is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside a paradox!" How true!

I could easily reply, as I do a LOT of high level music production...in reality the paradox is that 'professional' and 'top drawer cinematic' can be technically explained like this: they just contain all the 'imperfections' that our own senses have. Hyper detailed audio that tries to be more perfect than we actually can ear (or do with our instruments) sounds fake in the long run, same thing with pictures (HDR horrific fake look) or video (hyper sharpened/detailed/smooth stuff).

Add to this as well another thing...what we are USED to see/ear, that's what will become 'natural' to us, and that's why is also very subjective indeed.

The only 'technical' (objective I dare?) fact is to shoot with as small framerate as possible and 2k and -1 sharpness, considering that 30fps might force you to have -2 sharpness depending on situation, then color choice becomes personal (casual operator or Youtuber can go with anything as long as they expose correctly, but I'm trying to challenge everyone here, the casual ones as well, to do that small extra step and get to next level ).

Anyway thanks for the post, inspiring and a great reference for color modes for anyone wanting a quick comparison!

 

[Pathogen]

apart from sporting stuff (that luckily I can avoid like plague) I do like much more the 24fps, always...

I'm with you on this. The only use I have for anything above 24fps is for getting the slow down effect, rather than having to use something like 'retimer' in post. It was a pleasant surprise to see those uber high fps options, even though its only 720p, but some lens flares or something should help cheat that one past the mean eyes.

'top drawer cinematic' can be technically explained like this: they just contain all the 'imperfections' that our own senses have.

That is a valuable and concise characterization!

 

[deadwing]

I'm with you on this. The only use I have for anything above 24fps is for getting the slow down effect, rather than having to use something like 'retimer' in post. It was a pleasant surprise to see those uber high fps options, even though its only 720p, but some lens flares or something should help cheat that one past the mean eyes.


That is a valuable and concise characterization!

I do agree that higher FPS are good when needing slow mo, that makes it easier in post without using Optical Flows (FCP) or Twixtor...but on Mavic they're just not an option IMHO, even if using those methods actually can SMOOTH out the flickering because they slow everything down and actually 'redo' the footage in terms of inter frames. Depending on footage, was one of the possible ways I was using to reduce flicker and sometimes was working!

Anyway I can say that I slowed to down to 2% (!) of its original speed a scene I shoot with the Mavic at 24fps...using Twixtor...now the scene didn't contain too many things moving too much or too fast, but anyway final result was AMAZING. Twixtor is not cheap, but 2% super slowmo from a 24fps is something...all smooth and perfect, much better than Optical Flow native from FCP.

So I know if I want to slowmo something I can shoot 24fps and use Twixtor to actually slow it down efficiently...I tried shooting higher fps in 1080 with Mavic, as others found I think they're not real higher FPS as the quality of the frames is much worse as you start shooting at higher frame rates.

 

[invaliduser]

Wow that footage looks exactly like what I cannot achieve and using a professional software like Final Cut Pro X and even the always recommended Flicker Free!

Ok I'm going to give your suggestion a try and will report back shortly..

Are you using an ND filter?

 

[deadwing]

Are you using an ND filter?

Cheers, problem was not of the ND filter (that I was using) but all the rest of stuff explained in the 3 and more pages of posts

So all solved, is just the flicker problem of the Mavic and all detailed solution I posted and not involving any 'flicker adjustment' in post, thanks!

 

[Pathogen]

OK just to muddy the waters further (my favorite pastime), I read this comment from reddit:

Using 0 and any negative settings on the sharpness introduces areas of blurriness, not the entire video frame. Some parts are decently sharp, others are blurry and soft. Going into post and sharpening the video afterwards sharpens the entire thing..and the blurry bits still stay kind of blurry and the sharp bets get even sharper.

I don't know what causes this, but he is correct, at least in the case of my Mavic. negative sharp recordings have a sharply focused middle and blurred outer areas, while positive sharp recordings are evenly sharp. I say that tentatively, as I must do some new tests specifically for this.

EDIT: OK first tests proved inconclusive. Sure at positive sharpness, there is the appearance of more even detail as compared to negative sharpness (where the inner region appears to be more focused than the outer), but after close inspection, it may well be that it is an illusion. The sharpening maybe be just grinding on image noise, rather than actual detail.

 

[deadwing]

OK just to muddy the waters further (my favorite pastime), I read this comment from reddit:



I don't know what causes this, but he is correct, at least in the case of my Mavic. negative sharp recordings have a sharply focused middle and blurred outer areas, while positive sharp recordings are evenly sharp. I say that tentatively, as I must do some new tests specifically for this.

EDIT: OK first tests proved inconclusive. Sure at positive sharpness, there is the appearance of more even detail as compared to negative sharpness (where the inner region appears to be more focused than the outer), but after close inspection, it may well be that it is an illusion. The sharpening maybe be just grinding on image noise, rather than actual detail.

I was about to say that, but you replied, that's what it does..0 or positive sharpness tries to recover digitally the natural response of the small Mavic sensor. But it does it horribly to a bit closer (or trained) inspection. Is a 'wow' sharpness looking at it in small resolution for one second without even having time to notice how fake and flickering is

About reddit, what it says is actually correct only in 4k, because that camera as I said is not naturally 4k as it's too small. In 4k blurriness on sides erc. is terrible. In 2k what that Reddit comment says doesn't happen (as you can see from my final footage as well).

If only we could use 60mb in 2k it would be 35% more bandwidth available than now, and that would probably mean sharpness 0 and 30fps possible in 2k without any flickering....! DJI give us a High Quality VS Smaller File Size setting for the videos as you do with JPEG vs RAW with images!!

 

[Willik]

... BTW I watched the video, very nice place and shots! On about half of the shots I can see details flickering and shadows flickering
...
But would disappear using -1 sharpness in 2k (not 4k) with 24fps (not higher) in DLOG and adding back later the contrast of the scenes (being careful in exposing correctly)..I think you might get even more contrast probably!

Hi, and thanks for your comments. I must admit I am still a noob in this and all my vids on YT are yet in auto focus mode... starting from d-log edited in iMovie without colorgrade, now after the last fw up to .800 I kind a like the Truecolor option... and as the time goes I am trying more and more things and I hope/guess the shots are improving at least slightly.

YT channel: Dronespire

I will try the Manual mode with d-log and sharpness -1 as you recommend, but before I must figure out the colorgrading on my iPad Pro. (I started to use Luma Fusion Pro btw.)

Regards!

 

[deadwing]

Hi, and thanks for your comments. I must admit I am still a noob in this and all my vids on YT are yet in auto focus mode... starting from d-log edited in iMovie without colorgrade, now after the last fw up to .800 I kind a like the Truecolor option... and as the time goes I am trying more and more things and I hope/guess the shots are improving at least slightly.

I will try the Manual mode with d-log and sharpness -1 as you recommend, but before I must figure out the colorgrading on my iPad Pro. (I started to use Luma Fusion Pro btw.)

Regards!

Yes I use Fusion as well, for levels you might also want to try this one

VideoGrade - Color Editor for HD Video and Photos on the App Store

Doesn't look great but does the job! Turecolor like Cinema is not too bad, not as good as DLOG but not is decent in helping keeping dynamics under control (and so flickering as well) in the 'raw' footage to be able to extend them later in post.

 

[deadwing]

Talking about Video Grade (for grading Mavic footage on iOS), I just downloaded it as well on my iPhone and I can state is probably even faster than Final Cut Pro X, and using the sharpness you find in the 'Denoise' tab makes amazing stuff (is a much fine sharpening).

It clearly offers any grading and balancing you ever need for grading Mavic footage (and save your own presets), next time I'll do a full editing (Fusion) and grading (Video Grade) on my iPad and will post result, I'm sure will be as good as on Final Cut Pro X because these post operations are very simple and standard ones.

 

[nomad33fw]

Hello everyone


I got my Mavic since a few days, and being an experienced photographer and good experience with video as well, I'm really disappointed.

I've done three days of intense tests, pictures quality is really good, videos quality (compression algorithm) is appalling. Below raw footage in DLOG, all manual, 2.7k 30fps (same thing in 4k 30fps, just worse), 240 shutter, but this problem is the same at 60 or 1000...the problem is the 8 frames GOP compression, it makes any change of exposure/details horribly flickering most of all when there's none to small movement.

This is raw footage...clouds rolling, so light changing, loads of details on the bottom and a more static/detailed in the upper half..result is disastrous. But even on more static or less detailed subjects, shadows suffer terribly of this problem, as well as any detail.

I've seen and tried Flicker Free plugin, but it doesn't solve really always the problem, and cannot be a solution to a problem that is obvious in Mavic firmware/compression settings!

Any suggestion/feedback?

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Silly question as you're far more experienced then I. Have you tried a differed SD card and is the one you're using capable of the bandwidth needed?

 

[deadwing]

Silly question as you're far more experienced then I. Have you tried a differed SD card and is the one you're using capable of the bandwidth needed?

Interesting point!

I shoot uncompressed HD video footage on my cameras, so I only use UHS (>80mbps) type that are more than the Mavic can give them (sadly no more than 60mbps only in 4k).

I doubt the Mavic is able to adjust its encoding bandwidth to the SD card, but would be great to see what it does with an old standard SD recording in 4k...I suppose would produce some error instead of encoding the 4k footage at less than 60mbps (the encoder profile of the Mavic is sadly a CBR so is unable to adjust to conditions).

 

[Pathogen]

but would be great to see what it does with an old standard SD recording in 4k.

One time on an early recording using the card that came with my Mavic, I had a recording just randomly stop. Not sure why.

So you say 2k makes better results than 4k eh? OK buddy now I will test some of this lower resolution crazy talk and see if you might just be right yet again. Cheers!

 

[DomoDan]

You're doing all the editing on the iPad? Nice. I've got an iPad Pro. How do you go about getting the footage on to the iPad?

 

[deadwing]

You're doing all the editing on the iPad? Nice. I've got an iPad Pro. How do you go about getting the footage on to the iPad?

For a few quids get an SD to Lightning adapter (buy ine that does not need any extra app), or the official Apple Camera Kit, then you're done iPad automatically reads SD cards and allows you to import pics and videos.

If you need get a micro to normal SD adapter. Probably works as well simply with a USB to Lightning adapter and then using any cheap usb SD cards reader, or connecting directly the Mavic to the USB adapter.

 

[Pathogen]

Well my resolution testing isn't going so well. I changed my recording method and tried LOG profile, but the image color is so compressed I have to grade it out, but when I do I get horrible banding in the sky and whatnot, so i'll try again tomorrow weather permitting with record color profile I am more familiar with.

 

[deadwing]

Well my resolution testing isn't going so well. I changed my recording method and tried LOG profile, but the image color is so compressed I have to grade it out, but when I do I get horrible banding in the sky and whatnot, so i'll try again tomorrow weather permitting with record color profile I am more familiar with.

If you got colors compressed something is wrong in the post process...and if you're using what all Youtubers say (and then sell!)..LUTs...just trash them out and do it manually.

LOG looks compressed if unprocessed, but is not. Ignore colours or LUTs and just stretch the histogram so that shadows go back to the right of the histogram (without clipping) and don't touch the highlights, just move the middle if you want the image a bit more bright or dark. If you exposed correctly and you're on latest firmware (that fixed LOG) then there's no banding.

Banding is either because you had large overexposed parts of the sky or because whatever levels you're applying are compressing and not expanding.

EDIT: look at these, as it's what you need to do (and it takes 30 seconds once you know how to do it with whatever program you use)

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(at minute 3:20 you see exactly what I mean...as you see here -and other video- all professionals get RAW footage that looks flat, because is the one that in the end contains more dynamics and contrast...at minute 3:20 you see exactly what I mean by stretching down to recover shadows/contrast and without any artifacts)