Mavic Pro: why DJI doesn't fix this huge flickering/compression problem?

[Pathogen]

just stretch the histogram so that shadows go back to the right of the histogram (without clipping) and don't touch the highlights, just move the middle if you want the image a bit more bright or dark

I appreciate what you are saying, and doing that results in a high quality result, I'm most certainly not arguing that.

Unfortunately, it simply is not 'the look' I'm after, and so further bending the curves resulted in banding. To get the look I want, I use the built in profile that best suits what I'm going after based on the scene I'm trying to capture. Using that process, and some tips I got from you and Oglo and probably others, I get 'the look' I'm after. I think for me it's the only way given the limited gamut range of this device.

I best just show you what I mean. This is a totally non-graded clip, using 'cool' profile, recorded at 4K, using -1 sharpness (of course! ). The pan is obviously the Mavic, but the zoom was done in post. Again, no grading.

http://mediauploads.net/2SU

When I tried to get the same using LOG, by the time I had it graded to get that look, it was destroyed. Having said that, your advice is essentially perfect to get the most out of the Mavic with minimal fuss, and I commend you for sharing it, as it has helped me refine my process.

 

[deadwing]

I appreciate what you are saying, and doing that results in a high quality result, I'm most certainly not arguing that.

Unfortunately, it simply is not 'the look' I'm after, and so further bending the curves resulted in banding. To get the look I want, I use the built in profile that best suits what I'm going after based on the scene I'm trying to capture. Using that process, and some tips I got from you and Oglo and probably others, I get 'the look' I'm after. I think for me it's the only way given the limited gamut range of this device.

I best just show you what I mean. This is a totally non-graded clip, using 'cool' profile, recorded at 4K, using -1 sharpness (of course! ). The pan is obviously the Mavic, but the zoom was done in post. Again, no grading.

http://mediauploads.net/2SU

When I tried to get the same using LOG, by the time I had it graded to get that look, it was destroyed. Having said that, your advice is essentially perfect to get the most out of the Mavic with minimal fuss, and I commend you for sharing it, as it has helped me refine my process.

Nice look on that video, yes whatever it works for you (or whatever you can adapt from all suggestions around) then is good

Yes definitely when there's small to no movements in a scene (both of the drone and of the objects you're shooting) you can go up to 2k 0 or 4k -1. I still think that look is very easy to do with grading, but doesn't matter as long as it works for you

 

[Pathogen]

Nice look on that video, yes whatever it works for you (or whatever you can adapt from all suggestions around) then is good

Thanks buddy!

Yes definitely when there's small to no movements in a scene (both of the drone and of the objects you're shooting) you can go up to 2k 0 or 4k -1. I still think that look is very easy to do with grading, but doesn't matter as long as it works for you

Actually I find the lack of a soft setting shows most when there is no movement at all. Maybe its a perception thing, since we all perceive differently? I mean, imagine trying to explain what the color blue looks like, to someone who has always been blind. An interesting thought experiment there.

With LOG I just couldn't get the forest down dark and also tone split, while keeping the clouds bright and soft. I would say don't underestimate your own grading ability, because believe me I tried for hours and couldn't get close to just using the COOL profile, which has that separation natively.

I think it would be helpful to know just how exactly DJI applies its processing, but they don't divulge it as far as I know. Also in case no one has mentioned it, wouldn't it be nice if we could pick a bitrate independent of resolution?

 

[deadwing]

Thanks buddy!


Actually I find the lack of a soft setting shows most when there is no movement at all. Maybe its a perception thing, since we all perceive differently? I mean, imagine trying to explain what the color blue looks like, to someone who has always been blind. An interesting thought experiment there.

With LOG I just couldn't get the forest down dark and also tone split, while keeping the clouds bright and soft. I would say don't underestimate your own grading ability, because believe me I tried for hours and couldn't get close to just using the COOL profile, which has that separation natively.

I think it would be helpful to know just how exactly DJI applies its processing, but they don't divulge it as far as I know. Also in case no one has mentioned it, wouldn't it be nice if we could pick a bitrate independent of resolution?

Yeah that would be great, but I do understand it might be more complicated: for them to implement and for average user to understand instead of being confused (considering the already overwhelming amount of options not well organised imho). I still think a 'High Quality vs File Size' simple setting might solve it...60mbps (that is maximum allowed) always, in case of High Quality, and they would make many more people happy and buying Mavics.

For your footage if you get the same in LOG as is short clip send it over, I'll give it a try and I can always show you later the settings in FCP X. It just needs to stretch down the shadows and maybe the mid point a bit (levels), and then to cool down temperature of the shadows, I do think is not my grading ability is just the lack of simple tutorials where people on Youtube instead of talking for 30 minutes (hate 99% of them) and like their own voice or promote their f***ing channel, they just spend 30 seconds showing how to do it

But I actually hate all youtube tutorials concept, it takes more time but writing well a clean page with some screenshots is by far the best way to show clearly things (and to learn fast without skimming through!)

 

[Sebnoumea]

Unfortunately it won't happen anytime soon : RC Groups - View Single Post - Official DJI Mavic ***Owner and Developer'sThread***

 

[deadwing]

Unfortunately it won't happen anytime soon : RC Groups - View Single Post - Official DJI Mavic ***Owner and Developer'sThread***

I'm (not) surprised by that idiotic reply...we never did it before, we're not doing it now...what (no) explanation is that?

It just shows the fact they're incapable of modifying stuff (hardware and software) they probably bought from some third party and reuse on all aircrafts.

And the total lack of skills for the developers who did it (surely not from DJI), not surprising that reply considering the horror stories we read about their support.

Now...my developer head is thinking...what about opening up the **** thing firmware to see if (as it very often happens!) they're just soft limiting it?

 

[Willik]

Yes I use Fusion as well, for levels you might also want to try this one

VideoGrade - Color Editor for HD Video and Photos on the App Store

Doesn't look great but does the job! Turecolor like Cinema is not too bad, not as good as DLOG but not is decent in helping keeping dynamics under control (and so flickering as well) in the 'raw' footage to be able to extend them later in post.

Hi thanks for recommendation -
is the app also for 4K vids? (I see only HD and Full HD in the description.
Thanks

 

[deadwing]

Hi thanks for recommendation -
is the app also for 4K vids? (I see only HD and Full HD in the description.
Thanks

I don't shoot 4k but is all written here and it clearly says 4k

VideoGrade

 

[Willik]

I don't shoot 4k but is all written here and it clearly says 4k

VideoGrade

Thx I allready bought it. Its superb! ;-)

 

[deadwing]

Thx I allready bought it. Its superb! ;-)

Indeed I think it easily covers ANY grading need for Mavic users...I mean if they are willing to spend a few minutes actually learning and experimenting instead of buying or using ridiculous LUTs without even knowing that they do

 

[Pathogen]

Now...my developer head is thinking...what about opening up the **** thing firmware to see if (as it very often happens!) they're just soft limiting it?

I hear that reverse engineering the Mavic is proving far more difficult that what one might normally expect from a consumer device. As you might imagine the priority is break the NFZ restrictions, but the best they can do as of yet is trick out the system by padding the GPS values with an offset so that the drone thinks its not quite exactly where it really is. Can you say KLUDGE? I knew you could!

Back on topic, I think I might have managed to improve a method for compensating for the keyframe pulsing using a very simple motion blur type effect. The following is a 1920x1080 capture using +1,0,0, with only a simple gamma adjustment, and a temporal smooth.

Descent of the Nomacs.mp4

Honestly now that I'm not fighting pulsing, and can take an honest look at the sharpen DJI gives, I think its too sharp even at +1 in the context of a cinematic look anyways. It's going to clash badly with normal scenes of human subjects with common depth of field conditions.

 

[deadwing]

I hear that reverse engineering the Mavic is proving far more difficult that what one might normally expect from a consumer device. As you might imagine the priority is break the NFZ restrictions, but the best they can do as of yet is trick out the system by padding the GPS values with an offset so that the drone thinks its not quite exactly where it really is. Can you say KLUDGE? I knew you could!

Back on topic, I think I might have managed to improve a method for compensating for the keyframe pulsing using a very simple motion blur type effect. The following is a 1920x1080 capture using +1,0,0, with only a simple gamma adjustment, and a temporal smooth.

Descent of the Nomacs.mp4

Honestly now that I'm not fighting pulsing, and can take an honest look at the sharpen DJI gives, I think its too sharp even at +1 in the context of a cinematic look anyways. It's going to clash badly with normal scenes of human subjects with common depth of field conditions.

I do agree, I think anything more than 0 in sharpness on Mavic makes images 'look' sharper for a second, but has the same wow factor (and is as fake) as hdr...is not what our eyes see, or how our eyes see, is just an effect, and much overused (and on a machine like Mavic also not well done).

I think at sharpening 0 would look much more filmic and natural, and so much more pleasant and real to the eye if watching for more than a few seconds.

 

[Gastone360]

Hi everybody,

I read all with great care but you don't specify what happens if you record and see your work on a good 4k tv.
In my case on a 4k OLED 55 I see the flickering practically always and I see a huge difference between 2.7k and 4k in terms of image precision and resolution so I can not turn in 2.7k ....
I'll do a last 4k test with sharpness -2 and I'll tell you though, flickering aside, my best setting without any color grading is truecolor with sharpness -1 (always in 4k)
How can I eliminate flickering in 4k???? Just with 24fps and -2 sharpness?? My last recording was a 4k 24fps with sharpness -1 and is outstanding but.....I see flickering in almost every situation of light
thank you very much, I appreciate your work and words...

 

[deadwing]

I got a 4K high quality monitor that I use for professional photo and video editing...and yes there the flickering is even worse. BUT I'm not a fan of the 4k sharp look, so even on my 4K monitor I always keep it very neutral and calibrated, and to be honest difference between 4k and 2k of the Mavic is only that 4k seems stupidly digitally sharpened and horrendous (or terribly blurry for compression), while the 2k with -1 (or -2 for very demanding/detailed/contrasty scenes) is very filmic after you add some very FINE sharpening (means radius 0.5 to 1) and fine grain.

It looks just nice and natural...but yeah I can definitely say that if you care about your footage more than just putting it on Youtube or showing it to your mates on a phone, then the ONLY setting working is 2.7, 24fps and sharpening -1 (most of the times, if flickering happens turn it to -2). The colour space is less important, although using ND filter and DLOG just make it easier to do another KEY element for Mavic: expose well the shadows and turn them more 'shadowy' in post, because the little sensor cannot really get any detail in shadows and tries to compensate with digital stuff that you want to avoid.

4k forget about it, unless you use it 24fps and sharpening -2 (but to my eyes is worst than 2.7 sharpening -1), and yes anyway always 24fps to save as much bandwidth (that reduces flickering and artifacts).

 

[Gastone360]

You have the point!! My final goal is to view my footage on tv with the best quality, even if the files are huge....
and you are right about over sharpened images, I don't like it too! Yesterday my footage was a splendid 4k with -1 and I was really happy with the sharpness, with a natural looking ecc...
I'll try a side by side 2.7k -1 and a 4k -2

I forgot to mention that I'll make some cuts, music ecc....and probably not color grading because I'm an not a pro and I don't have the skill for now but I love quality images, free of noise and detailed as in the real world

another little thing...you prefer 2.7k 30fps or 24fps?

 

[Willik]

From my opinion - It of course very depends on what screen you are watching the vid. So far all my vids look splendid on small screens (like iPad pro) but even on Samsung TV with 1080p res only, I can see many issues in my footages. That makes me wonder also a bit - how about – even when make a superb quality vid in 2,7k, 24fps, -1 sharpness and excellent exposure, color grading etc. (shortly - as good as it gets) checked on my Samsung TV screen, what if the vid will look bad on different screens? (e.g. when I take it to my friend, who may have an 8k-LG or even better TV with different settings, more dynamic contrast, etc.?


I guess – maybe no universal settings can be applied here, since the preferences are always individual...


So far I have recognized a HUGE difference between iPad screen and the Samsung 46” TV (not everything what looks great on iPad, looks also good on my Samsung TV) Presuming Samsung has much better screen than iPad so it shows much more issues, what can’t be recognized in iPad.


Or do you have different experiences?

thx

 

[deadwing]

From my opinion - It of course very depends on what screen you are watching the vid. So far all my vids look splendid on small screens (like iPad pro) but even on Samsung TV with 1080p res only, I can see many issues in my footages. That makes me wonder also a bit - how about – even when make a superb quality vid in 2,7k, 24fps, -1 sharpness and excellent exposure, color grading etc. (shortly - as good as it gets) checked on my Samsung TV screen, what if the vid will look bad on different screens? (e.g. when I take it to my friend, who may have an 8k-LG or even better TV with different settings, more dynamic contrast, etc.?


I guess – maybe no universal settings can be applied here, since the preferences are always individual...


So far I have recognized a HUGE difference between iPad screen and the Samsung 46” TV (not everything what looks great on iPad, looks also good on my Samsung TV) Presuming Samsung has much better screen than iPad so it shows much more issues, what can’t be recognized in iPad.


Or do you have different experiences?

thx

That is absolutely normal behaviour, there are many things here to notice BUT generally speaking (unless a few few exceptions) the bigger the screen, the more you see defects.

Is also true on Youtube...try looking at a Mavic footage in the normal small window and it looks ok, then bring it full screen and you'll start seeing more defects...is just our eyes can see more bigger/more light details.

Another variable in this case is also how many pixels are crammed...an iPad screen is not the same of another iPad screen...I have the latest iPad Pro 10.2 and I can tell you I can see there more defects than on my normal 52" tv (HD), almost as many as my 4K monitor but not that many still.

So it varies...but generally speaking, always check your footage (for problems) on the bigger screen you have (at least HD resolution), and if on a computer check them ALWAYS full screen

 

[Gastone360]

yes of course it depends on the screen you look for. On my OLED Tv everything is really good, I just want to avoid and eliminate flickering and bad compression issues....
I just made some test with 4k @24fps - 2 vs 2.7K@24fps - 1....I'm very curious, I'll watch the footage this evening

Deadwing help me please in this: I can see the flickering in all the image, not just in a few part or in the bottom ecc....I usually see like a little strobe in the image and it is uniform....are we talking of the same thing....or not?

 

[Gastone360]

Ok I made my test: I can confirm that 2.7K @24fps -1 sharpness is sharper and better than 4k with the same parameters but wuth -2 sharpness.
The flickering is almost gone....maybe just a few in certain areas but much better than before.
I'll made other tests with 30fps....I'd like to try with sharpness a ZERO, maybe a little more flickering but quite accettable compared with the same in 4k????

 

[Willik]

Tried 4K with -1 and -2; unfortunatelly this is not acceptable for me due to the strong wattercolor effect. Even on 0 sharp., I see slight wattercolor in green (trees) shadows. Maybe we have different light conditions here in CZ. (mostly cloudy, or semicloudy), because of the sun the pics are usually good only around the noon. I can't almost turn vids during late afternoons or mornings because of long shadows - what are beautiful with my Nikon DSLR but unwatchable with Mavic. Will try 2,7K with lower fps, will see. Cheers.