VLOS rule makes flights boring - do you follow it?

[spsphotos]

I think mods need to close all VLOS posts as this has been beaten to death and discussions serve no purpose other then the start arguements.

 

[Don Testme]

Hello, I have been flying drones for 1 year now and with my first drone VLOS wasn't a problem, the drone itself was big, bigger than a phantom 4 pro, and the range was limited (about 1 km max at 120 m / 400 ft) and you could see it from very far away.
6 months ago I got myself a mavic air 2, this thing is tiny compared to my older drone and it is only visible until about 400 meters distance.
Almost all of the flights with my Mavic Air 2 have been BVLOS because it's impossible to maintain VLOS.

My first question is: if almost all big aircraft cannot fly lower than 150 meters / 500 feet in Class G Airspace then why bother with VLOS? Especially in my situation when I'm 50 km away from airports and heliports.

Second question is: How many people in the drone community actually follow the rule? Vote in the poll!

I will neither confirm or deny an answer. So, I guess you have it.

 

[edfrombama]

Good morning to all-
I don't like to see discussions- civil ones, at least- shut down by mods. I will admit I find the expression of different points of view quite interesting and sometimes informative.
I don't post distances I fly any more because apparently this disturbs some. So be it. In my drone flying as in everything else in my life, I will do what I feel prudent and acceptable to a normally attentive person in different circumstances. If I flew in a populated area with lots of air traffic, I would fly differently than I do here where I live in the wilds of south Alabama where there are very few aircraft of any kind, and almost no low-flying craft.
I guess the way I see it, if my drone makes contact with an airplane where I fly, it really won't matter because that airplane is already crashing anyway.

Good day to all- Ed

 

[BigAl07]

Good morning to all-
I don't like to see discussions- civil ones, at least- shut down by mods. I will admit I find the expression of different points of view quite interesting and sometimes informative.
I don't post distances I fly any more because apparently this disturbs some. So be it. In my drone flying as in everything else in my life, I will do what I feel prudent and acceptable to a normally attentive person in different circumstances. If I flew in a populated area with lots of air traffic, I would fly differently than I do here where I live in the wilds of south Alabama where there are very few aircraft of any kind, and almost no low-flying craft.
I guess the way I see it, if my drone makes contact with an airplane where I fly, it really won't matter because that airplane is already crashing anyway.

Good day to all- Ed

Already crashing? What if it's an Emergency Services Aircraft (Life Flight, Fire Suppression, Search & Rescue, LE Searching for a fleeing suspect)? What about Utility Inspection/Maintenance/Clearing? What about Crop Inspect/Spraying? The list goes on and on . . . .

That's quite the narrow point of view to hold when someone else's life is on the line and you're standing safely on the ground without a care in the world. IMHO that's grossly negligent to say the least.

 

[edfrombama]

Good afternoon to all-
BigA107- When I fly, I am absolutely NOT without a care in the world. Obviously, you've never flown with me. When I fly, I am very attentive to the world around me. I am very diligent to try and see what's going on. If I ever detected any kind of low-flying aircraft of any kind in my vicinity, I would land immediately or at least make sure I would not encounter the low flying plane.
I have lived in this location for over 25 years and in all this time, there has been 1 low-flying aircraft which MIGHT have been in conflict with my flying. That was an emergency car-crash helicopter, and this occurred 15 years ago. Nothing before or since which would be a hazard in any way.
And you really should be careful of who you accuse of being negligent until you know what you're talking about, which you do not in my case.

good day to all- Ed

 

[BigAl07]

Good afternoon to all-
BigA107- When I fly, I am absolutely NOT without a care in the world. Obviously, you've never flown with me. When I fly, I am very attentive to the world around me. I am very diligent to try and see what's going on. If I ever detected any kind of low-flying aircraft of any kind in my vicinity, I would land immediately or at least make sure I would not encounter the low flying plane.
I have lived in this location for over 25 years and in all this time, there has been 1 low-flying aircraft which MIGHT have been in conflict with my flying. That was an emergency car-crash helicopter, and this occurred 15 years ago. Nothing before or since which would be a hazard in any way.
And you really should be careful of who you accuse of being negligent until you know what you're talking about, which you do not in my case.

good day to all- Ed

I stand fully by what I said and I quoted you...

"I guess the way I see it, if my drone makes contact with an airplane where I fly, it really won't matter because that airplane is already crashing anyway."

^^^ Very negligent ATTITUDE.... if you fly differently than your attitude great but I merely used your quote which proves my point totally.

 

[edfrombama]

I stand fully by what I said and I quoted you...

"I guess the way I see it, if my drone makes contact with an airplane where I fly, it really won't matter because that airplane is already crashing anyway."

^^^ Very negligent ATTITUDE.... if you fly differently than your attitude great but I merely used your quote which proves my point totally.

BigA107- Stand where and how you wish. I repeat, you don't know anything about me and my drone flying, and I expect you never will. And if your point is proven in your mind, I hope it gives you pleasure thinking that.
I do believe I may grab up my bag and go flying.

good day to all- Ed

 

[Tufargon]

I stand fully by what I said and I quoted you...

"I guess the way I see it, if my drone makes contact with an airplane where I fly, it really won't matter because that airplane is already crashing anyway."

^^^ Very negligent ATTITUDE.... if you fly differently than your attitude great but I merely used your quote which proves my point totally.

I could be wrong but I think what he said, you mis-understood. I think he meant that if a plane was in his area at the level he flies then it was about to crash or in the process of crashing and if he hit or if it hit his drone it wouldn't matter because it was already in the process of crashing. I could be wrong.

 

[edfrombama]

Good afternoon to all-
Tufargon- That is precisely what I meant to say. Any airplane that is in contact distance with my drone where and how I fly is already an aircraft in the process of going down. My drone would have no effect at all.
Being a writer, I like to think most of my words are pretty unambiguous. glad you read it the way I intended.

good day to all- Ed

 

[slozukimc]

Good afternoon to all-
Tufargon- That is precisely what I meant to say. Any airplane that is in contact distance with my drone where and how I fly is already an aircraft in the process of going down. My drone would have no effect at all.
Being a writer, I like to think most of my words are pretty unambiguous. glad you read it the way I intended.

good day to all- Ed

That is how I read it as well. It is also how I feel about where I fly my FPV racing drones. I am on MY property, below trees, in a brushy field. I have offered permission for emergency services to land on my property. They have designated sites they transport to for insurance reasons. Therefore they declined. I am also within 2 miles of an airfield. The small planes fly over my property, sometimes quite low but there is ZERO chance one of them is going to contact my FPV where I am. You can speculate all you want but reality has to be part of any responsible pilots choice to fly or not. Reality is that if a manned aircraft is going to be in the area where I am flying outside LOS because of my googles then they are indeed about to crash anyway.

Mike

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

If I ever detected any kind of low-flying aircraft of any kind in my vicinity, I would land immediately or at least make sure I would not encounter the low flying plane.

Ed, I know where you're coming from, but with respect to the above . . .
If you were say a mile or 2 away from your home point, and you detected a low plane or helicopter in the vicinity, it's possibly too late to take any evasive action.
If coming from the other way particularly, it's probably been near your drone by the time you hear it.

Further, what evasive action could you take ?
You would have NO IDEA where the other aircraft is, what direction it's going, how high it is in relation to your drone, and with your very limited camera view in any sort of 360 degree view, or up and down view, you will find there is no way you can avoid an aircraft if necessary.

I have lived in this location for over 25 years and in all this time, there has been 1 low-flying aircraft which MIGHT have been in conflict with my flying. That was an emergency car-crash helicopter, and this occurred 15 years ago. Nothing before or since which would be a hazard in any way.

So are you physic, can detect when an incident has happened on a distant highway and an air ambulance is en route ?
It might only happen once in 15 years, it might happen twice in a year, it might be when you are flying in it's path.

I know, you're flying for 20 mins, 30 mins, whatever . . . what are the chances of this ever happening ??
The planets lining up so precisely that your drone could be a threat to a manned aircraft ??

But I've said it before here on the forum, every single week / day, whatever, someone in the World wins the lotto jackpot.
The odds are pretty remote there too.

This drone flight scenario is one lotto you don't want to ever win.

Last note so it's clear.
If you fly VLOS to the best of your ability, you can almost 100% detect a manned aircraft approaching, and make the necessary adjustments to your flight to avoid it.

Frankly, I feel the 400' rule is even more risky to manned flights flying low, takes a long time for a drone to descend, and it can be a slow process.

Anyway, let's hope there is never an issue with your flight Ed, no one would want to have even a near miss on their books.

 

[mschaffer66]

The way I understand the reasoning behind VLOS and the 400' ceiling is so that you don't accidently hit a manned aircraft, correct?

I imagine this question will trigger some people...

Have any mathematical geniuses ever calculated the probability of a drone and an aircraft meeting in midair? I didn't really see much in the google machine other than talk of what could become of the plane if it did happen.

 

[BigAl07]

The way I understand the reasoning behind VLOS and the 400' ceiling is so that you don't accidently hit a manned aircraft, correct?

Especially other aircraft (manned or unmanned) but also towers and buildings etc. It's best we See & Avoid as much as we can.

I imagine this question will trigger some people...

Absolutely so. It's almost guaranteed

Have any mathematical geniuses ever calculated the probability of a drone and an aircraft meeting in midair? I didn't really see much in the google machine other than talk of what could become of the plane if it did happen.

The odds are EXTREMLY low but they aren't ZERO. The fact it's not ZERO only matters to those who happen to be ON the airplane/helicopter/paramotor etc that IS hit by the UAS.

We have a UH-60 taken down by a Phantom 4 on September 21, 2017.
"On Sept. 21, 2017, a U.S. Army Black Hawk hit something while flying low over New York harbor. No one was injured but the helicopter was damaged. Authorities recovered a small piece of a drone from inside the helicopter and confirmed it was a DJI Phantom 4."

On Feb 6th, 2022 we have a Mavic Zoom colliding with a A350BA Helicopter
"On 6 February 2020, Airbus Helicopters AS350BA N611TC of Icon Helicopters and a 0.9 kg DJI Mavic 2 Zoom drone collided in mid air during filming of the King of the Hammers off-road race in the Johnson Valley, in the High Desert of San Bernardino County, California. "

I know of a couple of others that aren't public knowledge yet that will only add to this list recently.


So I that low percentage only makes those of us firmly on the ground feel better and more empowered while it's 100% for the ones listed above.

So for those interested here is a "rough test" of what a small FPV drone "could" do to a Paramotor:

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[slozukimc]

Especially other aircraft (manned or unmanned) but also towers and buildings etc. It's best we See & Avoid as much as we can.


Absolutely so. It's almost guaranteed


The odds are EXTREMLY low but they aren't ZERO. The fact it's not ZERO only matters to those who happen to be ON the airplane/helicopter/paramotor etc that IS hit by the UAS.

We have a UH-60 taken down by a Phantom 4 on September 21, 2017.
"On Sept. 21, 2017, a U.S. Army Black Hawk hit something while flying low over New York harbor. No one was injured but the helicopter was damaged. Authorities recovered a small piece of a drone from inside the helicopter and confirmed it was a DJI Phantom 4."

On Feb 6th, 2022 we have a Mavic Zoom colliding with a A350BA Helicopter
"On 6 February 2020, Airbus Helicopters AS350BA N611TC of Icon Helicopters and a 0.9 kg DJI Mavic 2 Zoom drone collided in mid air during filming of the King of the Hammers off-road race in the Johnson Valley, in the High Desert of San Bernardino County, California. "

I know of a couple of others that aren't public knowledge yet that will only add to this list recently.


So I that low percentage only makes those of us firmly on the ground feel better and more empowered while it's 100% for the ones listed above.

So for those interested here is a "rough test" of what a small FPV drone "could" do to a Paramotor:

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Any injuries in either? Did either heli go down? So we have two collisions with zero casualties amongst millions of manned and unmanned flights. Really, I am not the slightest bit scared of a drone taking down a plane I, or a loved one is on with odds like those. Way too many more likely things to worry about.

Mike

 

[BigAl07]

Any injuries in either? Did either heli go down? So we have two collisions with zero casualties amongst millions of manned and unmanned flights. Really, I am not the slightest bit scared of a drone taking down a plane I, or a loved one is on with odds like those. Way too many more likely things to worry about.

Mike

The UH-60 Blackhawk made an Emergency Landing and IIRC the Rotors had to be replaced at a cost of $250K.

The smaller heli had a windshield impact (initially) and nothing structural was damaged.

I can't comment on any others at the moment.

Aviation is safe because we go out of our way for Risk Mitigation and we do things to PREVENT accidents (as best we can) before they happen.

 

[mschaffer66]

The odds are EXTREMLY low but they aren't ZERO.

I fully understand that. Everything has odds of happening in this world no matter how low they are. Heck, there is a chance an asteroid could wipe out life on this planet before I post this response.

I would just like to know if someone out there has "ran the numbers" and figured it out.

 

[shizack2000]

A "minor" incident here or there is what triggered all this current draconian regulation.
RC airplanes and helicopters almost never caused issues. It was only the explosion of drones with irresponsible rc pilots that raised the ire of Karen, Brad, and the authorities.
Flagrant disregard of safety measures has no place in this hobby/vocation. It will inevitably lead to tighter controls and ultimately, outright bans.
This includes FPV with no VO, "how high can it go" tests, BVLOS range tests, GPS spoofing (to some degree), etc.
Please stop. It makes it worse for the rest of us.

 

[snowghost]

There was a guy on the forums a few years back, can't remember his moniker. But he flew these ridiculous night auto missions way BVLOS all over one of the Eastern cities--I think Baltimore. Even did two drones, follow the leader style on at least one occasion. Hope he stopped doing it.

 

[slozukimc]

There was a guy on the forums a few years back, can't remember his moniker. But he flew these ridiculous night auto missions way BVLOS all over one of the Eastern cities--I think Baltimore. Even did two drones, follow the leader style on at least one occasion. Hope he stopped doing it.

Wow. Makes my occasional dip below the treeline or up a creek a few yards by FPV to get a shot I want seem pretty insignificant if you were to compare.

Mike

 

[BigAl07]

There was a guy on the forums a few years back, can't remember his moniker. But he flew these ridiculous night auto missions way BVLOS all over one of the Eastern cities--I think Baltimore. Even did two drones, follow the leader style on at least one occasion. Hope he stopped doing it.

I remember that.... he used Litchi (IIRC) and had one follow the other between/around buildings over downtown. I can't remember his screen name and it could have been over on Phantom Pilots too.... now I'm gonna be obsessed on trying to remember LOL.